Welcome, believers!
I LOVE catchy titles!
I wrote this as a response to a letter; the gray text was the incoming letter, the rest is my reply. Don't let the title throw you off, or get your emotions riled; it is meant to get your attention...read on.
I appreciated your response and did not feel dogged. I welcome your invitation to debate the issue, but I prefer first to find our common ground. It is a powerful issue and is almost impossible to discuss it without evoking strong emotions. It is my personal belief that Satan is using this issue (along with others) to rip churches apart. I live in a rural area and my church is very conservative. It is near impossible for me to have this discussion with members of my own church. Within my own community, the Presbyterian Church USA position on abortion is LIBERAL (dirty word) in the extreme. This has been quite a dilemma for me as some of my dearest brothers in Christ feel that if you are truly saved you would have to change your political party affiliation to republican.
There is NO question that Satan is very strongly involved with the abortion issue. At least there is rational behind how it could divide a church, unlike the ridiculous nature of something like whether or not, Adam and Eve had a navel!—there literally is a church in CA that split in half on this issue; we need things to strengthen the true church, not divide it.
I have friends I see as saved who are most certainly Democrat. I get 'in trouble' sometimes when I will say something that seems judgmental like that Bill Clinton is 'wicked', when I was just using a literal definition of the word, and applying the very definitions of the word.
Read my abortion newsletter: I have a feeling that you and I are pretty much on the same page. I'm the only person I know who wanted to put BOTH a pro-life and pro-choice bumper sticker on my car. I'm also the only person I've ever met to go to a motorcycle no-helmet-law rally wearing a helmet! That is the kind of statement I like to make. I am all for no helmet law, and I am all for doing the right thing; wearing a helmet.
As my politics are liberal, or more appropriately libertarian. I tend to side with democrats on social issues, and I'm with the republicans on the fiscal issues. As a baby-boomer and Vietnam era vet, I have developed strong sense of cynicism regarding the governments ability to regulate moral behavior. I distrust any governmental intrusion on individual freedoms: gun control, abortion, regulation of pornography (except where children are involved). I am opposed to the death penalty, as I don't trust the government to make competent decisions regarding human life (including the unborn).
Libertarian is 'the way to go'.
I don't really have a political affiliation. If I learned anything from the impeachment fiasco was that there isn't a thinking person in the senate or the congress. (I was just as disappointed in the Republicans who just jumped on the President's case as the ridiculous backing of the President that the democrats had). I can't say what's really on my mind with words with 5 or more letters! (and can really understand what you mean about being cynical about the gov. regulating moral behavior; no KIDDING!) How can we possible expect that; look at the leader of our country, who doesn't think that oral sex is sex; the name is in the very description! You are so right on the gov. intrusion on our freedoms, and I for the most part agree including guns, for sure, abortion, for the most part; I don't have a problem with certain aspects, like outright outlawing partial-birth abortions, etc. Regulation of porn again, like you say; some examples that are just so bad, that you can't defend it as honorable or even OK. My position on pornography is well documented in my last newsletter.
It's interesting about the death penalty. I am not against the concept of a death penalty, but I am totally for eliminating it; it's so ludicrous; it costs so much to use the death penalty that just on a simple logic of that we can incarcerate somebody for 40-50 years, maybe MORE for the cost of ONE death penalty carried to execution. However, I am for looking into different forms of punishment that actually DO work, but because they aren't 'politically correct' our country won't go for; namely castration for any violent crime; a bad-a** gang member is not afraid at ALL of a death-penalty, but he's gonna fear becoming a eunuch and going back to the streets, I just KNOW this is true. I also know as fact, that it would be an effective form of making people less violent; they used to do it in the US for out-of-control mental patients and it worked perfectly well.
Darn straight on don't trust govt. on important issues. The govt. is not about moral issues, that is the church's job. God does NOT WANT robots; we are to come to HIM on our own accord, any ties between church and govt. are the same as telling us what we are to believe. God would rather have NO believers than a forced believer.
I love the Lord with all my heart. I've prayed about this issue and searched the scriptures for guidance. What I have found is that God wants US (not the State, but you and I as individuals) to work together to stop ALL sin by spreading the Good News. This means that we as Christians work together to bring souls to Christ before they walk through the doors of the abortion clinic. I hope this can be the common ground I referred to above. Satan wants us to neglect this mission and redirect our energies towards fighting each other.
This is very true. Dennis Miller says about the smartest thing I've ever heard about abortion. Not a soul on earth 'really knows' when the soul enters the body...and clearly it is there at one point. He takes a more liberal stance of let the other do what they want, God will judge the ones the mess up. Like every thing, we are to look at what is good and righteous, and make a decision on it, go from there. I will say that I 'hear' in my prayers, that the soul DOES become part of the body at conception. I read from the bible that we are supposed to help each other come closer to God, and I read Romans 1:32 to say that God does NOT look kindly on those who let people 'do what they want' when it's wrong. Just like I wish that all people would realized that Jesus is the only path to salvation, I wish I could just gift my understanding of why abortion is wrong...I have to just point people to look, and read scripture, and pray...maybe show people what I've found to help me, and maybe they will see the same thing.
Think about this (just shown this concept by the Holy Spirit this second): Mary was the perfect example of a PRIME candidate for an abortion; YIKES! An engaged woman is pregnant, and NOT by the man about to be her husband! I think that it is the job of the PERSON to come to realize that abortion is just plain evil, just like it's up to the individual to come to realize that God is not.
It is terrible that people hate other people because they believe or not on a subject. Some of the things that weight me to the pro-life only side is that given the 'option' people are very weak, and will tend do to what 'feels right', and what they logically conclude is 'best' for them, and NOT really listen to the word of God. It is a terrible dilemma, knowing what is right, and knowing that giving people the freedom to do evil things *is* just that... (basically telling them it's OK). Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's OK.
The very very tricky thing is this; Romans 1:32 says pointblank that people that do immoral things aren't the only ones that are to be judged, but those who approve of such things; I totally see this being applicable to both homosexuality and any sex-related sin, which includes abortion. It does NOT say that we are to make a LAW to say what it right...we are to TEACH what is right with the bible, and SHOW that it is WRONG to say it's OK. (to be gay, or have abortions).
I believe God is at work in this discussion you and I are having now. It was my search for answers to these struggles that got me on your mailing list via a mailing list done Brian Elroy McKinley.
God is certainly at work. I don't like that there is this terrible stigma attached to saying 'pro-choice' which of course I am, because I also am pro-life, and even if it were the opposite (semi-theoretical) that you HAD to have an abortion, and live-birth were illegal, I would not change to the 'legal' stance, because I know what is the truth. Here is an interesting example; The bible says that adultery is wrong, to the point that just THINKING of it can be a sin, and yet by strict definition adultery is sex with a married person you are not married to; in the most famous case of adultery, Clinton, the essence of that sin was certainly carried out, though the 'letter of the law' wasn't. Just because the US decided to make abortion legal never made it OK.
In my abortion newsletter I made it clear from the opening that you can't find a simple verse that states that abortion is wrong, or should be illegal, but with enough study, you can find it's wrong. Should everything 'wrong' in the bible be a law. Well in a way, it is; God's law...should it be mans law too? Our laws should be based on the bible, but not every stinking variation of every theme needs to be translated into a law; that is what the Pharisees did, and that is CLEARLY wrong. I have a problem with the pro-life vs. pro-choice camps which is losing sight of what is important by fighting over something based on emotions.
I love that little oops by Elroy; it was the spark that got my ministry going, and I have had at least one 'confirmed kill' (convert to Christianity), and a growing number of people who are telling me that I am being encouraging to their faith!
I thought about abortion in the past, and at one point, I thought, I could see myself, even though I consider the very act a sin, something that on an offside chance, I'd use...now I don't still have that stance, but I came to that conclusion on my own, with GOD as my guide not a LAW. I can tell you the TRUTH, which is that I am MORE anti-abortion BECAUSE it's legal, than if it were illegal! God doesn't want robots, but he does want people who come to HIM on their own accord. I just see that as one more example of how to show God you love HIM; don't kill your unborn baby....most decidedly NOT 'listen to the MEN who say it's wrong, and make it illegal'. It is not ever the 'easy way' to teach somebody the truth that they can use the truth to make their own decision; think of being a parent and how nerve racking it is to hope you taught your children well enough they can make the right choices. Even when you know what is right, it is no better for them to be a robot of your will than us to be a robot of God's will.
I sped-read the position paper, and it's a very sound document from what I immediately read. There has been some enlightenment I've recently gotten from the Holy Spirit that I wouldn't be able to agree totally with that document, but it is sound, and it is clearly seeking truth, not trying to create it. I know, for example, that the rape/incest thing, as undeniably creepy as it is, is not a viable excuse for an abortion. A soul is not unlovable because the conception occurred in an unloving way. Conception and therefore life can NOT occur without God's hand. I do not claim to know all the answers. I will say that I really really would not want to be 'given that hand', like I say about homosexuality; it's difficult enough to be heterosexual and not have a wife, but to have misguided desires as well; ouch. However....if *I* can refrain from premarital affairs because that is God's way, somebody who has wrong desires CAN certainly overcome the unnatural wants he or she has. That applies to being homosexual and not acting on those desires, and also applies to being pregnant with a child you didn't 'want' and not killing it to suit YOUR selfish desires.
I am reminded of the rapture debate; so many churches are split on this; saying the other side is backed by the devil. What kind of ridiculous CRAP is that!??! Did you read my newsletter on rapture? I updated it recently, so if you only saw it when I emailed it, please reread it from my website. My forward and open-minded thinking on that topic will give you a better sense of my true stance on the abortion issue.
The main problem I have with abortion is that it is an out-of-control GREED-based sin-machine; it's not about if it's legal or not, and making it illegal is actually wrong IMHO; it's not that abortions are legal that caused the abortion machine to get out of control; you have to go back another decade to when they removed the bible from the schools. THAT is the bases of the problem...unfortunately, that was nearing 40 years ago; meaning that it would take 40 years just to get back to where we were when the bible was taken out of schools, except that EXACTLY like how Eve's eyes were opened, now OUR eyes have been opened. We have been deceived, truly beguiled by the promises of Satan. With that taken into account, the momentum truly can not be reversed; there just aren't enough true Christians to do it.
Before I get a barrage of email because I state it's wrong to make abortion illegal...that is a very complex thought...Oh, I'm all FOR making it just the most difficult legal jump through every hoop on the planet before being eligible...yadda yadda. I'm not talking about the vile state of affairs we are in right now where it is considered a rite of any woman do 'do what she wants with her body'; that is an abomination to me—I just know that prohibiting abortion completely will work just like prohibiting alcohol!
God tells us we are to encourage one another and lift each other up! I will note that a majority of people who are gung-ho pro-choice are NOT Christian, and a possibly a majority of people who are gung-ho pro-life ARE. However, there are most certainly a strong minority on both sides who are on the opposite side. I tend to side with Dennis' Miller's comment that we really don't know the answer, but that you are messing with God's laws, and God's paybacks are eternal. Who want's to make that mistake. Error on the side of caution is what I learned as a baby; never lost it. Where does that leave me on this issue; on the side of caution means 1) do NOT have a law making abortion illegal (believe it or not)*, and 2) NEVER commit and abortion.
*It would be the 'easy' route to make all abortion illegal, and it seems the 'right thing to do', but what I see is that you will drive a GREAT MANY people away from GOD, not to God with laws like that...What good is it to save a life and lose a soul.
What *I* happen to believe about when the soul enters the body (conception), could be wrong, and I am one of the very very very few (maybe the ONLY) pro-life advocate who will openly admit this. God refers to people in the womb in a personal way, indicating a soul, in the womb, but there is no indication of exactly when that is, i.e. when there is a brain wave (popular pro-choice thought). It is clear that a person is a person before he leaves the womb, and so some forms of abortion are clearly murder in Gods eyes; this is easy to realize when we can take a baby out of the womb and it will survive at a far earlier date than some abortions are done.
Based on my knowledge that life begins at conception (by definition) and belief that that is also when the soul attaches to that life form, any form of birth control that doesn't prevent conception is just the same as an abortion. The VAST majority of Christians are completely unaware of the fact that the birth-control pill is only as effective as it is because in the 10-20% of the time that it doesn't act as a contraceptive, it has a back-up mechanism of an abortifacient. Again I could be wrong on when the soul is part of that being, but I am erring on the side of caution. By never killing a human fetus, it's impossible to kill one 'too late'. Make no mistake, abortion is killing, regardless of if the soul is there or not. A fetus is not pre-human...but by definition is IS human. An abortion is literally killing a human, there are no ifs ands or buts about it, plain and simple, there is no getting around that.
Here is something very key: Abortions are not just evil because they are killing a human, and possibly sending a soul to hell... Abortions are evil because of the thinking behind them... what is on our hearts that would let us come to the conclusion that they are OK; it boils down to putting our wants above God's.
The thing is that abortions are used for convenience ONLY, and that is the VAST VAST majority of the time, and this is strictly our self-righteous greed, listening to the lies of satan that back this machine. The pcusa position on abortion will solidly back me up on that being clearly wrong. I know that this is truth: that with NO 'convenience' abortions there would be NO abortion issue, no major abortion debate. It is because we raise our wants and desires above God's that is the root of the problem. I.e. when we screw around before being married, and get pregnant, another sin is not acceptable in God's eyes to cancel the first sin, also when we realize we won't be able to afford that second home with 4 kids, but with 3 we can; these are atrocities. God wants us to love HIM, that was His purpose in creating us. God wants MORE souls to love him, and that can only happen when we go forth and multiply. (He never said go forth and add). If Jesus taught anything being more important than anything else it that the essence of what is in your heart is truly what is important, and NOT the 'letter of the law'. Unfortunately, just like all you can do is show your Children what is right and let them decide, God must show His children 'us' what is right (the Bible), and let us decide.
Imagine that....'decide'...which of course is a synonym for choose! Hence God WANTS US TO CHOOSE, and that makes God Pro-Choice!
Tell me what you think of all that.
Andrew (with some direct influence from the Holy Spirit) :)
ps. It should be very obvious that the phrase 'pro choice' in this letter is not the same meaning of the 'pro choice camp', the 'all abortions, all the time' mentality that is sweeping the world (what many have chosen to call 'pro death'.
Part Two (Whoa...more..?)It is very true about the personal freedom, however, we have two sides: civility and freedom the more freedom the less civility. One extreme would be total freedom, where murder would be completely legal; we could eat people if we are just hungry; basically animal kingdom. On the other extreme, the government decides everything we can and can not do. Neither extreme is the right choice, so somewhere in the middle is the right choice. I was talking to my mom just now...she is a staunch pro-lifer.I agree with Dennis Miller's analysis. It reduces the debate to its simplest terms. If the fetus has a soul at the time of the abortion, it is murder. If the fetus does not, it is not. Since the time of 'ensoulment' cannot be determined objectively, the decision in my opinion, is best left to the principal parties involved (the women) her family and her God. The Pro-life argument would be that it would be better to err on the side of the unborn and forbid the procedure. I would counter that argument by stating that the intrusion by the State into the private life, and faith of the women involved is a massive infraction of personal freedom. Regardless of what else may happen, the parties involved will answer to God - not man. "Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: It is mine to avenge; I will repay, says the Lord." Romans 12:19
She is very much libertarian in political views; government OUT of our lives, however she sees one role of government is to protect life and liberty, and regardless of the soul being in the fetus, abortion is killing a human...by simple definition. I find that it doesn't take figuring out if the soul has entered to figure it it is a sin. I however, as you have noticed am more open minded, and at least not judgmental on people who are earnestly trying to figure out the right choice.
I'm told by God to fight against abortions, but in the way you see here; witness to people that it's an evil thing...not to outright judge and condemn people who do it...trust me, most people who do are quite clueless to the consequences of their actions. Jesus said himself of the people about to kill him...."forgive them father, they know not what they are doing". This is what I feel about somebody who commits abortion (saying it this way because I personally see it wrong, like adultery, etc., and commit fits perfectly for sins).
You are apt, to point out the verse in Romans...It truly is GOD who gets to make the decisions of judgment, however there is some basic logic behind the pro-life movement about saving lives...The thing is that I do believe that more people will commit abortions senselessly as long as they are legal...is it fair to just let people who are unknowing of the consequences at hand to just go on believing the lie that it is OK to kill unborn humans for whatever reason? I think there certainly is a middle ground that can be achieve legally that makes sense. Somewhere in between the ludicrous state where we are right now, where virtually any abortion any time for any reason is not just legal, but accepted, and the equally ludicrous state where no abortion ever is legal.
Like I said, having no laws for abortion and no abortions, I am absolutely sure that is the way God wants it. There is no doubt. The question is, how much personal freedom are we willing to give up FOR God's cause...i.e. give up the freedom of having a choice of abortion so that less people will make that choice. My personal view is that I could stand this agreed as infraction on personal freedom from the govt. for the reason that it MAY save souls.
The Pro-life movement equates the life of the unborn with that of the born. If the unborn are 'ensouled' then abortion is no different then mass murder. The act of abortion is the same as murdering a baby, be it 6 months or 6 years old. If this is true, we are all guilty of collaboration with a regime more monstrous then Nazi Germany. We pay taxes to this regime, we consume it's bounty while we protest the baby killing. If it is baby killing, we should rise up in armed rebellion against the regime. If we are pacifists, we should be on hunger strikes, we should sacrifice all we have and flee the monstrous murdering nation to more righteous nation's (Italy & Ireland come to mind) elsewhere in the world. When you call abortion baby-killing you invoke this level of moral responsibility. The Pro-life movement is quick to condemn the clinic bombings and assignations, but if it is baby-killing, then the bombers and assassins are just soldiers in a just and worthy cause.
The thing is that although honorable in their cause, they are basing their cause on an un-provable, faith...that conception is where the soul enters the body...and YES you hit all those things on the nose what infuriate anybody who believes that...including me...I do believe that as I told you...I just can't prove it, and darn it I know it. Oh I wish I did know; it would make it a real easy quest than, huh? I'm not going to play God and judge people who I believe are making a terrible mistake by killing humans (notice that I don't say 'baby killing'. This is on-purpose to avoid getting steam under people's collars, but also show the truth, that it is KILLING.
I try to avoid the moral implications of if it has a soul, than it is murder (truth), since it can't be proven, and follow a different route...to show that it's despicable on it's own, regardless. There can not be anything righteous found in the inhuman, unnatural, and certainly not Godly action, and that is the bases for my understanding that is is just plain wrong. Regardless of the soul being in the unborn human at the time it is killed, it is a vile act...Think about other laws we have that are understood as wrong, even morally so, and human life is not involved. Say...littering..killing a certain kind of Bird (something that God clearly said was OK, and yet IS illegal in many cases!).
re: the bombers=soldiers. Another thing Dennis Miller said about this topic, was aimed at these people...he says that 'if your God tells you you have to kill somebody for this reason, you need to crush some tinfoil on your antenna, because you are getting some HEAVY interference!' He goes on to say 'believe it or not [he] considers himself to be a CHRISTIAN, and a central tenet of Christianity is one of tolerance.. to LOVE one another; not kill one another. It is God job to judge, not ours'.
It is a difficult thing...I think you said what the righteous route is; convince people before they go to the abortion factory that it's wrong without having to make it illegal; the honorable way to do things is never the easy way. I don't see that making abortion illegal will really help much in the long run; it will make people pissed off at the organizations (Christian religion) that caused it, and this is a WORSE SIN that killing an unborn human. Do not drive people away from God, which clearly this is doing.
I agree with the rape incest thing (article e). If it is a human life, it does not become less human because of rape, incest or deformity. I think PCUSA was trying to make room for both camps i.e. as you said "... seeking truth not trying to create it." This issue could easily shatter our church and our elders were trying to come up with a position that would allow believers of both sides to continue to worship together. I think they have been somewhat successful, but deep divisions remain see www.ppl.org.
I saw that the way you describe, and as you pointed out I see..that it is in search of truth. There will be divisions as long as the faith is based on something that can not be proven. I see with bigger eyes than most people. It doesn't make easy...God said that the right path would be narrow...I sense that you and I are on the right path; indicated by that it's obviously not as easy as taking either extreme. I sense that the route I take helps avoid convicting people in a way that will drive them from God. What good is saving a baby into an unsaved upbringing? I know that the more important thing is to try to help save the soul of the MOM, and with luck do it soon enough that she might be offended at the notion of killing an unborn human growing inside of her.
I have tried to convince myself in the past that erring on the side of caution and going whole-hog into the pro-life camp is the right thing to do, and yet, with the Holy Spirit in me strong enough that I will type letters and be given literal words frequently, I have NOT been led that way....what does that tell YOU?
I am so torn...seeing people committing hanus acts against humanity, and I believe God, even, yet it's not illegal...it blows my mind. I want so badly to say it should be just all illegal (like the pro-life camp), and yet I don't see it helping and I'm not led in that direction...I'm also certainly not about to back the 'pro-death' camp (all abortion, all the time). My stance is certainly pro choice, but I show my obedience to GODS word rather than MANS word. I will always CHOOSE LIFE, and I am wise enough with the Lord to see that is the right thing to to regardless of if it's LEGAL to KILL my unborn child. Legal doesn't mean correct. It is LEGAL to have sex before you are married, as long as you are 18. It is legal in most instances to LIE, It is legal, and promoted highly in this world to covet your neighbor's wife. It is legal in most states to commit adultery. It is not just legal, but the freedom of choice is paramount to CHOOSE your own GOD; Freedom of Religion in the USA.
Well, I hope you can see a parallel. Gods #1 command in the OT was to have no Gods before HIM, and yet most Christians do see that it is not a good thing to make a law to make it illegal to believe in another god. However, God's NT #1 command "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind" is followed up with "You shall love your neighbor as yourself". Well, my friends, if you are to love your Neighbor as yourself, how can you not see that that LAW of God applies to a person who is not just within you, but quite literally attached to you.
To be clear...I personally am not 'against' litigation that limits abortion; I hope you got the gist of this letter that abortion is disgusting and vile, and should never be done; I use the phrase 'commit abortion' to show it's against the wish of God. I think that all our laws should be biblically based, but I just see a big picture that it's better that we don't have a law to say it's only legal to be a Christian, and there is something 'to' that.
Use God's word, and prayer and Godly council to make educated decisions in anything and Everything.