Welcome, believers!I wrote the bulk of the content of this letter in response to Elroy's infamous website, and his writings that try to show the bible is all for abortion, homosexuality, premarital sex, and every other sin or vice we can think of. I found a lot of useful thoughts to show Elroy where his thought process was wrong, but surely talking to a brick wall, so I wanted to share with people who could help put my thoughts to good use.
When Jesus was Gay
(The eye-catching title of Elroy's article).
Thoughts on Homosexuality and Adultery and Remarriage.
Caught my eye, of course; well named (for the purpose of getting attention). You made some excellent observations in that writing, and the summary was perfect. The analogy of comparing a practicing homosexual to somebody that is divorced and remarried is very astute! There are some differences, however. I found a few websites recently that discussed the concept of remarriage, and the sin involved, and the scriptures that tell you the right thing to do, but I'd have to look it up. The bible is pretty clear that Jesus said the only "out" for marriage is a partner who fornicates, clearly indicating adultery. There is one other "out" that was described elsewhere; abandonment. Just how many divorces happened because the spouse cheated? in these cases, divorce is OK by scripture, although reconciliation is preferred. It's better to forgive, than divorce. Obviously this is NOT the case in many divorces, at least not at first. (i.e. Getting divorced, (not biblically, but legally), and THEN committing adultery). You make a VERY good point about the whole "stop sinning" (i.e. Go back to your first spouse, stop "cheating with your new wife"ัthe bible actually says specifically that THAT is wrong, if you sent your wife away, and she already got married), but depending upon when you became Christian, there are different answers. Becoming Christian is not like our laws; you can, in a way, plead ignorance. (Only if you truly WERE ignorant, when you become Christian, you are a NEW CREATION 2cor 5:17). What does that mean for people that CLAIM to be Christian, but haven't reconciled their adultery with God; simply that they AREN'T Christian. God (Jesus) will judge everybody in the end, and only Jesus (and each individual person) knows if they truly believe, and follow Jesus.
That brings me to homosexuality. There is no gene, as many would have you believe, it surely is a choice; there can be no doubt that there is a passion that some men for men, and it may be stronger than the natural passion for a women, I give them that too. I can only say that I am glad that it's not me, because overcoming that sounds like a serious challenge, and I pray for anybody with that dilemma I have other dilemmas that are just as difficult to deal with, my recommendation to them is DEAL WITH IT. God says that he will NEVER push you farther than you can stand, and I for one believe it.
I have recently had some new insight on the topic; that there is most certainly an environmental impact that influences homosexuality. Somebody asked me 'how could God let these people become homosexual if that will keep them from salvation?' Look back to certain curses that God put on people in the OT; his curses would last for generations; it makes sense, then, that for example, a non-Christian upbringing could bring somebody into a preconditioned state of not being within Gods laws, and that they would have a more difficult time becoming saved. Broken families with missing fathers and tough mothers are far more likely to bring about gay men, for example.
There are murderers out there for whom it is more natural for them to kill than not, does that mean it's OK; of course not. Then, WHY would it be OK to act on homosexual urges? It's NOT OK to act on lustful urges, even if that lust is pointed to the opposite sex. (MT 5:28 ). God WILL test us, but NOT tempt us. If it's a TEMPTATION, it's the devil's work, what does THAT say about homosexuality. My personal take on the subject is that it's a sin of Greed; "I want what *I* want", and perhaps pride. I find it quaint that the center of the homosexual life (capital of gay PRIDE, etc.) is San Francisco; the exact place where thousands and thousands of MEN went to "get what they want" during the Gold rush.
A gay (woman) historian equated the two concepts on a tour of San Francisco, I thought it was VERY interesting. The bible is actually pretty clear in Romans 1 about the whole homosexuality thing; you do have to read the entire 1st chapter of Romans to paint a good picture, and it doesn't hurt to read it in 3-4 translations, followed up with the penalty paid by Sodom and G. Trying to defend it by saying "it's only as bad as being remarried" is wrong. It is BRILLIANT to make the observation that the sin is similar, although I don't remember the phrase abomination or detestable being used for adultery, and both are used to describe the act of homosexuality. (The punishment in the OT was the same, though). Judging is clearly NOT our job, and it is terrible the way people who CALL themselves Christian judge others terribly today. The bible does clearly call for discernment, and since it does teach us about morality, it is not wrong to tell others what we have learned. If somebody appears to be "lost", it is our duty to see if he has it in his heart to be "found".
It's terrible that people act so condescending; they didn't learn Jesus' lesson about the "cast the first stone". If I had to guess, the percentage of the people that ARE Christian who claim to be must be 10-20% no more. Won't THEY be shocked when they are "left behind"?
Abortion is extra-biblical, no doubt
(Retort to Elroy's article that says the Bible says it's OK to abort, as long as the 'fetus' isn't Either John the Baptist or Jesus Christ.)
I'd like to "get in your head" for a minute about the abortion issue. I couldn't really follow what YOU believe from your poignant Bible study on the subject. Again, I have to say you did a good job of using scripture to try to find an answer, and came to the same basic conclusion I did; there is no CLEAR defining scripture to answer the question. (Meaning something like "Thou Shalt Not Commit Abortion". Especially notable is the verse that implies that the woman's life is worth more; i.e. If a man hits a woman and she loses the child=fine, but if after, she dies, THEN the fine is death.
I spend a lot of time searching scripture for a more clear answer, and with a lot of reading and a lot of praying, I see, sense, feel, and know that it's wrong, but there is NO easy scriptural route alone that will tell you it is wrong. (And I'm a very rare pro-life advocate to admit that openly). If you look at a couple things, you will see the scope of the reason to my conclusion.
- The act is a vile one; would it make God happy if you polluted a river (or say 4000 rivers) every day, would it make God happy if you stabbed somebody (but clearly didn't mean to kill him) every day. Would God approve of you taking a dump on your neighbor's lawn 4000x a day?
Regardless of the concept of soul, human essence, etc., LIFE begins at the moment of conception, and LIFE ENDS when an abortionist KILLS the fetus. It is a vile act. There is NO WAY to rationalize that it's not. Is it not vile when your sewer backs up in your basement. LOOK at the resultant product of any abortion.
Life: 1. Biology. a. The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism. b. The characteristic state or condition of a living organism.
Kill 1.a. To put to death. b. To deprive of life: The Black Death was a disease that killed millions.
Murder (look at defn. #2)
- The unlawful killing of one human being by another, especially with premeditated malice. (At this point, in the US, abortion is legal, hence by definition it is not murder (by OUR laws)). They are, quite truthfully, KILLERS, and WHY is that any better, I ask? Not to mention, that although "jury is still out", they are relatively likely to be murders by Gods law.
- Slang. Something that is very uncomfortable, difficult, or hazardous: The [abortion] is murder. There can be no question that an abortion ENDS a life. Whoa be to those people who think they are getting away with murder on a technicality, just IF we conservatives are actually right on something.
- Abortion is NOT used in the way it was originally instituted, say, a long-shot to save a MOM (sic), it is used merely as an afterthought form of birth control. From a pro-life stance, many birth-control methods are just as bad, because they don't stop conception (something many pro-lifers don't even get), they stop implantation, so the abortion is just automatic, and very early. This form of birth control is based on Pride, Greed, Envy, because it puts YOUR desires ahead of Gods.
Now, what right do WE have to tell others what to do? This country was originally founded by CHRISTIANS who wrote the laws based on biblical morals. We are supposed to write laws to govern, and as the people get farther and farther from God, the laws will (as you have seen) get further and further from Truth (God's laws). It's a dangerous line to walk the line that YOU [written to Elroy] are on, because although it seems to me that you are actually be a TON more Christian that most who claim to be, you've put some very powerful weaponry into the hands of people that will (quite literally) KILL for some way to rationalize their sinful behaviors.
I'd like to see absolutely everybody become saved. The more people in heaven, the better it will be. I'd always considered myself a very open-minded Christian, but never liberal, however my beliefs are NOT from anybody else telling me what is right or wrong, I did EXACTLY what Jesus would have done to answer the question 1) read the scripture, and 2) pray to God.
- If people followed more of God's laws, the issue of abortion would be nonexistent; this doesn't say we will ever be able to do anything about it. The morality of this country took a nose-dive the minute that biblical morals stopped being taught in school, and obviously THAT will never come back. What does that say? Mostly that we as a people have decided to put ourselves ahead of God, and that leads to all kinds of depravities. The bible does explain over and over the results of following this course. In OUR case, it leads to a path of 4000 babies killed in their mother's womb every day. I'd love to hear ANY attempt at a rationalization of HOW that could POSSIBLY be Good. (Vs. ANY other alternative; i.e. stop fornicating, people, get married, and raise a family, like God commands. This is messed up; people are paying $10,000 a chance to TRY to get pregnant; wanna hear a super-irony; most of these in-vitro fertilizations create many embryos, the BEST picked from those, the others KILLED! Be RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE!)
- By our fruits, we shall be known. Abortion IS KILLING, nobody can dispute that. I personally don't want to be known as a killer, of any kind; hell, I don't even kill a mouse I find in my house, I catch it an release it into the wild. Why? not because I think it's murder! If I wanted to eat a mouse, I'd kill it. KILLING the mouse does me no good, so WHY do it? The same goes for abortion. The plethora excuses for abortion are pretty lame when it comes down to it. It's a hell of a lot more convenient for me to flush a mouse than to take it out to a field, yet the mouse will never become a member of society because I let it live. I personally know too many wonderful CHRISTIAN people that are products of a pregnancy that by most people's screwy standards would have ended in DEATH. I'd like to hear what you think from what I said. I commend you for specifically NOT taking an accusative, judging, demeaning, and attacking stance.