The CulturePulp Q&A: 'Fearless' director Ronny Yu




As promised to readers of the Sunday, Sept. 25 Oregonian: Here's my bonus hour-long phone conversation with "Fearless" director Ronny Yu -- conducted a few days before my interview with Jet Li.

Yu's career is wildly diverse. Born in Hong Kong and educated in America -- with family currently living in Australia -- he first got international attention for his poetic 1993 Chinese sword-and-sorcery epic "The Bride with White Hair." A few years later, he came to Hollywood -- and made a name for himself as a cheeky re-booter of horror franchises with "Bride of Chucky" and "Freddy vs. Jason."

Now, with "Fearless," Yu has helped Jet Li realize a dream project -- a wild martial-arts parable about the life of early-1900s martial artist Huo Yuanjia. The film encapsulates Li's personal (and peaceful) philosophy of martial arts; in my review, I called it "a movie about inner peace with crazy, incredibly staged fight scenes every 10 minutes."

I talked with Yu about "Fearless," Jet Li, Huo Juanjia conspiracy theories, the difference between the Chinese and American film industries, Brandon Lee, fate, his original vision for "Snakes on a Plane," and much, much more. An edited transcript follows the jump.


_______________




HUO JUANJIA and
JOSEPH CAMPBELL

MIKE RUSSELL: One thing I loved about "Fearless" was that it told a simple, fable-like story -- a parable with simple, honest values -- but it told that story in a very intelligent way that never felt condescending.

RONNY YU: You know, I have to thank Joseph Campbell. When I started making movies in Hollywood, that's the first thing I picked up from the scriptwriters -- they showed me the book and all the interviews with Joseph Campbell, and I learned that George Lucas was inspired by Joseph Campbell's "Hero's Journey"… It inspired me.
The first time I met Jet Li, way back in 2004, he'd been trying to develop this Huo Yuanjia story for a few years, and just couldn't get it right. So I immediately asked him, "Why do you want to re-tell this guy's story?" -- because it's been told throughout television and movies for many years.
And he said, "After practicing Chinese wushu for so many years, I learned that the spirit behind it is similar to that of this guy from 100 years ago. He's almost a saint. His philosophy of Chinese wushu is not really about violence, revenge or killing everybody."

Q. It’s about discipline and forgiveness, I think.

A. Yeah, exactly. And he said, "I want to make a movie that allows me to express that philosophy to the world audience." And I think that the screenwriter he'd worked with before was tied down by the historical facts. Because during that era, China is under siege. So [Huo Yuanjia] became a revolutionary -- and the [original] story was about the revolution rather than Chinese wushu.
So I read all those drafts and came back to him in one week and said, "Listen: I'm pitching you a very simple story. Because what you want to do is express the true meaning behind Chinese wushu. I think we should make this very simple -- we want this to be understood by the world audience, not just by the Chinese.
"So forget about making a biography of this guy -- just make it a man's journey. A misguided martial artist makes a mistake in his life, he finds enlightenment in the village, and then he understands his position in the world and uses his talent to help his fellow countrymen." It’s Joseph Campbell's "Hero's Journey." Very simple. And easily understood.
_______________




DELETING MICHELLE YEOH

Q. One thing I loved about the movie was the way it opened, the way it’s structured: People don’t usually open their films showing so much of the climactic battle. How did you decide to put the film together that way?

A. This was not planned. Because the beginning of the movie -- which you will see in my extended cut on the DVD, which is coming out later this year, and is 45 minutes longer -- originally started with Michelle Yeoh. She was the bookend in the original script. I don't want to spoil it; I want you to wait until the DVD comes out. [NOTE: Jet Li totally spills on Yeoh's role in his interview.]
But the whole [theatrical release] structure came about in post-production, during the editing stage.
When you write a script, it has its own life. And when you're making the movie, you're going to encounter a lot of problems, and it has its own life again. And then in post-production you're putting the images together again, and it has its own life again. I think the most challenging thing for a director is to maintain objectivity -- where you sit back and look at your work and try not to remember how much you sweated trying to get that shot. You have to be very, very cruel to yourself -- almost indifferent. This is my philosophy.
I believe that once you decide to be a mainstream filmmaker -- that you want to make movies for a mainstream audience and spend a lot of money -- then you have to be responsible. You have to be responsible for the investor and the audience. The whole reason I went to Hollywood is that I realized by making a Hollywood movie, I can have my movie seen by almost everybody. If I kept making Hong Kong and Chinese movies, I'd have a narrow market.

Q. You'd have a cult of fans in America.

A. Yes. I want my movies to be seen by more people. I want people to be entertained. That's my intention with "Fearless." In Asia, everyone understood who Hui Yuanjia is. But I don't just want to re-tell this guy's story; I'm trying to tell a story about human nature, about the true spirit behind Chinese wushu. It's not just about violence or kicking butt.
_______________




THE HUMAN JAPANESE and
RONNY YU's ELABORATE
HUO YUANJIA CONSPIRACY THEORY

[WARNING: We get into some
SERIOUS STORY SPOILERS in this section.]

Q. Is it unusual for a Japanese character to be as heroic and noble as Tanaka is in a Hong Kong film?

A. I think that's one of the biggest mistakes that Chinese films and Hong Kong films have been making for so many years: setting up these shallow stereotyped characters in all these kung-fu movies.
"Okay. Villain? Japanese. They are not human. They're just cold-blooded killers." And that’s not real.
I mean, if you look at "Fearless," there's no villain.

Q. I know. Even the American prizefighter Huo Yuanjia fights has a moment of dignity in the ring.

A. Yeah. Yeah. The villain is actually Huo Yuanjia himself. It's human nature; we all function in this grey area. That's why I believe religion is so important for human beings. Without religion, I don't know -- we're worse than animals. But with religion -- it doesn’t matter whether you're Catholic or Buddhist -- it really helps you to find balance.
That's why I was keen to make this movie with Jet: It gives us another angle to look at Chinese wushu movies. [Not just] killing, revenge and stereotyped characters, where people are using the remote to fast-forward to the fight. [laughs]

Q. It's interesting that you point out there's no villain. Looking back, I realize we never really find out who ...

[I'M WARNING YOU -- THIS IS A MAJOR SPOILER]

... poisons Huo Yuanjia. It's almost like it's not even important.

A. It's not important, for the same reason that this isn't a stereotyped chop-socky movie. Drama doesn't need that.
On the other hand, when I started doing research on Huo Yuanjia…. I'm not so sure he died the way that it was [historically] documented.
I'll tell you; maybe you'll agree with me.
From the historical documents, Huo Yuanjia was challenged 100 years ago by a Japanese karate champion who came over from Japan. So he knocked this guy out -- broke his arm -- in 10 seconds. The fight was over in 10 seconds. And then the Japanese fighter invites Huo Yuanjia over for dinner that night -- and the fighter came with a Japanese doctor.
And Huo Yuanjia had asthma, so he'd been coughing all through dinner. So the Japanese doctor says, "We have better medicine in Japan. So why don't you take my medicine?" So according to history, Huo Yuanjia took this medicine for three months or six months or whatever, and he died -- he just dropped dead. An autopsy was performed by an English doctor, and when he opened up Huo Yuanjia, all his internal organs were totally rotten. So he was slowly poisoned by this Japanese doctor.
Now. The logic, for me, doesn't work. As a true wushu practitioner, he understood his body; he should have some knowledge of herbalism and medicine, as well.

Q. He should have known he was being poisoned.

A. Even laymen, like you and I -- if I take medicine for one week and I don't feel better, wouldn't I stop?
So I think there was a conspiracy, some sort of JFK thing, behind it. Because when you look at the situation at that moment, it's right in the heat of the Revolution…. And in real life, Huo Yuanjia's good friend, [the restaurateur] portrayed in the movie, is part of the Revolution.

Q. Which isn't in the film.

A. Right. He's the one who's really responsible for building Huo Yuanjia up into this national hero. So this is my theory: All the intellectuals wanted to find a way to tap into the laymen -- so they build up this hero, this fighter, to be a symbolic figure so that laymen can identify with all these intellectuals. And in the heat of the thing, we were invaded by all these Japanese, so [the intellectuals] said -- and this is my theory -- "Why don't we kill off this hero and then blame it on the Japanese to show how incompetent the present government is? They can't even protect us!" So he became the scapegoat, I think.
And his good friend, according to history, was a top-notch herbalist. He owned an herbal pharmacy and all that.
So this is my theory: I wonder if there was a conspiracy behind it. Maybe he was sacrificed for the good of the country.

Q. Your film really leaves that event open to interpretation -- and it treats Huo Yuanjia less as a historical character and more as a creature of myth.

A. Yes -- especially at the end, when he's almost a spirit. I really wanted the audience to feel that. He's not your normal martial artist. He's beyond that.
_______________




THE DEEPER MEANING of WUSHU

Q. What does a Chinese audience see and appreciate in “Fearless” that an American audience can’t?

A. Chinese wushu is part of Chinese culture. And I have to partly blame Chinese filmmakers. They never really portray Chinese wushu as a cultural thing -- they portray [wushu] almost as a .45 pistol in a Western.
Chinese wushu is not really about revenge, about killing -- about learning more about kung fu so you can be better at kicking ass.
As you may know, one Chinese character is formed by different words. Instead of A, B, C, D, you have different, independent words. If you look at the Chinese character for wushu, it's formed by two different words -- one is "stop" and the other one is "violence." Wu is actually "stop violence" and shu means "technique" or "art form." So the true meaning of wushu is "the art of stopping or preventing violence."
But the Chinese just wanted to find the easy way out for the world audience to "get it." If you look at all the previous chop-socky movies, across the board, they're all about revenge. Even Bruce Lee's movies. There's nothing about human spirit. It's all, "One of my family members got killed or one of my clan got killed -- I have to go find the best master." The middle part of the movie is the learning process. The end of the movie is, "I killed the guy and walked off into the sunset as the hero."
So people thought Chinese wushu was all about killing -- it's all about your selfish needs and satisfyin those needs.

Q. Whereas "Fearless" is about Huo Yuanjia learning about why his father withheld a killing blow.

A. Yeah. It's like Olympic sports: You don't kill somebody to get a gold medal -- you challenge yourself. You better yourself. You try to break your own record.
In China, there are all these different styles of wushu. All these schools are jealous of each other -- they all want to be No. 1. Huo Yuanjia, 100 years ago, abandoned that with the Jing Woo sports school. He opened it up to everybody -- every style of Chinese kung fu started to come and learn together. Because he believed that Chinese wushu was a cultural thing.
This is a thing Jet Li told me he learned after practicing wushu for so many years -- and he was responsible for making those movies! [laughs] He said, "Hey, Ronny, maybe it's time we gave something back -- we'll give an alternate deal to the audience. Whether they understand it or accept it, it doesn't matter."

Q. Is this why he wants to retire from wushu epics?

A. Yes. This is why he said this is going to be his last wushu movie. He poured out everything he's learned about Chinese wushu on this one. And he does everything himself -- no doubles -- and he's 43 years old, and his body is crunching back. He said he doesn't know how long he can do this.
But he can still do action movies -- like, shooting guns and all that. That's fine. But Chinese wushu? This is it. He's said it all.
_______________




REMEMBERING BRANDON LEE,
and a DISCUSSION OF FATE

Q. You worked with Brandon Lee on his only Hong Kong film.

A. I remember when the producer approached him on "The Crow," he showed me the script. And I said, "Brandon, this is really gonna turn you around, man. This movie's gonna make you a big star." Apparently, I was right. But there was this tragic accident.
I think it's all fate. In China, they would say there's a curse on his family. I truly believe in fate. I truly believe that someone up there has a program on each one of us.

Q. Do you see your time in Hollywood as fateful?

A. I truly think so. I never thought of it like, "Hey, I get to make movies in America." This was a dream for me -- because I really wanted my movies to be seen by a lot more people. If I kept making Chinese movies … the market is very narrow. Only a small amount of people would get to see it. But if you look at an American movie -- man. You open a map of the world and point your finger anywhere, that movie gets shown there.
That's my dream: to tell a story and have more people see it. But I never really thought I’d make it. Then I made "The Bride with White Hair." And that was fate. At the time, that genre was almost done to death -- but I just had this strong feeling that I could re-invent the genre and bring something strong to it. And so I made that movie, and it opened doors for me in the West.
_______________




LEARNING FROM HOLLYWOOD

Q. What did you take back to Hong Kong from your time in Hollywood?

A. I'm not sure. Maybe the storytelling. How do you make a story that can be understood by the world audience?
The thing I learned from Hollywood movies -- especially Steven Spielberg movies, which I like to analyze…. How to they tap into so many people, no matter what race? And then I realized: It's basic human emotion. And basic human emotion has no boundaries. It doesn't matter what language you speak. It doesn't matter what color your skin is.
When I'm making Hong Kong movies? This scene can be understood by Hong Kong or Chinese audiences. That's all. It doesn't matter how I structure the story. That's fine. But making movies in Hollywood, it's bigger -- you try to make things simpler…. This is what I tried to inject into "Fearless." How do you make a simple movie about human emotions?

Q. Were you ever worried about becoming Hollywood’s “horror franchise rebooter,” or is that something you enjoyed?

A. I feel blessed that I get to make movies in different parts of the world. I feel happy that I get to make movies -- let’s put it that way.
Nowadays, it’s so difficult to get a movie made. It doesn't matter if it's Hong Kong, China, or Hollywood. Being able to make a movie is almost like winning the lottery. It doesn't matter what genre, as long as I did my best and tried to inject different into that genre. That, to me, is the most satisfying thing.
And if it makes a lot of money and a lot of people enjoy it? Good. [laughs]

Q. You’ve said you want to do a “hardcore, action-packed” Bond movie. I just saw the new trailer for “Casino Royale.” While you didn’t direct it, it looks like they might be going in your direction with this one.

A. That's great. I loved the Bond movies growing up. I keep telling my agent, "Come on, come on -- try and get me one."
But it doesn't matter. Again, it's fate. When the time comes, it will come.

Q. Would you enjoy another turn at an American horror franchise? Is there any franchise you’d like to take on that you haven’t?

A. No, actually. I've never had one that I was dying to make. "Freddy vs. Jason" was offered to me and "Chucky" was offered to me, and I was not familiar with them. Afterward, I looked at all the movies in each franchise and asked myself, "How can I make it a little bit different?"
First of all, I must satisfy the core fans. I shouldn't try to disappoint them by saying, "You guys should listen to this new director." I have to respect these hard-core fans. But how can I sneak in my own little style and make it a little bit different, more intriguing?
Hey -- I'm fearless. [laughs]
_______________




RONNY YU's 'SNAKES ON A PLANE'

Q. I know Samuel L. Jackson was excited to work with you again, and I'm not sure you want to answer this, but: How would the Ronny Yu version of “Snakes on a Plane” have been different from the version we saw in theaters?

A. I was telling people that I wanted to kill him off. Again, I'm trying to find something different -- I'm trying to surprise the audience.
It's like "Jaws." Remember "Jaws"? With Robert Shaw?

Q. Uh, yes.

A. Robert Shaw is the shark hunter -- the expert. And he got swallowed by the Great White! Remember?

Q. Yeah.

A. What if Samuel L. Jackson got killed by the snakes? Then the passengers have no hero to rely on. So they themselves have to come up with the skill to kill those snakes. The audience becomes intrigued, because they're all normal people facing a very difficult situation.
When people see Samuel L. Jackson is the hero, they say, "Oh, Samuel L. Jackson will save the day." And they're not involved.
So that was my take: Kill Samuel L. Jackson. And of course everyone hated that idea. "Are you crazy? We have a superstar -- and then you kill him off?"
Anyway. It doesn't matter. It's just my thoughts.

Q. I was joking with someone after I saw "Snakes on a Plane" --

A. I haven't seen it yet! I haven't seen it yet!

Q. -- and I was saying that Hollywood played the whole thing as a bit of a joke -- but if they'd made this in Hong Kong, with the same title, it would have been played completely seriously. They would have gone over the top, but it would have been played straight.

A. When New Line sent me the script, immediately I loved it. It was so over-the-top non-serious. So it should be over the top. It should be a lot of fun. Don't take it too seriously. That's why I thought we should kill Samuel L. Jackson.
In Hollywood nowadays, I found that the studio executives work under such fear. They're so afraid. "Will this movie make any money?" It handicaps them from thinking something different, you know? "Why don’t we make 'X-Men 10' or 'Superman 20' or 'Spider-Man 30'?" Audiences get tired of it eventually.
_______________




JET LI vs. HUO YUANJIA
(in which certain bits from
earlier in the interview
are re-stated)

Q. It’s strange to see Jet Li give a performance where he smiles and jokes around so much. There's a whole section in "Fearless" where he's acting like a little kid.

A. But that’s him. That is him. There's so much similarity between the movie and his own life and career.
When I met him, we sat down and talked for three-and-a-half hours. He told me his life story. Maybe subconsciously, when I was helping come up with the storyline, I was thinking of him. Maybe he sees his own similarities to the Huo Yuanjia character. He's done a lot of research on this guy.

Q. That's interesting that you mention that. It struck me that in some ways, the scenes where Jet Li’s character is managing an entourage of hangers-on and thugs could be seen as a critique of fame -- of what it’s like to be in the movie business.

A. You just hit it. I'm so happy you got that. That was my intention.
And it's not just in Hollywood -- it's everywhere. It's the same in Hong Kong. You see these people with entourages of 20 people. Every night, they go out to karaoke. They sing and they're drunk. They can do anything they want. They can stop traffic. They drive these fancy cars. And nobody can say no to them.
That’s human nature. That's the whole reason I wanted to make this movie -- it's how people learn.
The journey is all about learning. Be fearless, and don't worry -- we all make mistakes. And if you make a mistake, you take responsibility and you move on. Hopefully, you can transcend to a different level. That's why I made "Fearless."

Q. I know you can't speak for Jet Li -- I'm interviewing him next week -- but did he go through a phase where he had an entourage?

A. He doesn't have an entourage -- but he did have to deal with being a champion. He will tell you next week.
When he was growing up, he was so dirt-poor -- he came from a peasant family -- and people were telling him, "If you go to a wushu school and you become a champion, it will give you fame and fortune." So without knowing anything about wushu, he just blindly went into the wushu school with one thing in mind: how to beat everybody and become the champion.

Q. [laughs] That's the movie right there.

A. Yeah. And he did it. For six years consistently, he was the national champion. Now, when you talk about 1.3 billion people and you are the champion for six years, that's a big deal.
Then, all of a sudden, he gets movie deals, there's a lot of money, he was demonstrating in front of the American president -- everything.
And he makes movies for 20 years, and then he meets up with a Tibetan monk and finds enlightenment. He finds the true meaning of life. Is it just fame and fortune? That's why he's into charity now, why he tries to give something back. And that's also why he wanted to tell this story.

Q. Did he approach you with the idea to do a movie about Huo Yuanjia?

A. Yeah. After I turned down "Snakes on a Plane," I went to Hong Kong on holiday. And then, through a friend of mine, our producing partner Bill Kong, I had coffee with Jet. He'd been trying to develop the story for a few years and just couldn't get it right.
I said, "What's the problem?"
And he said, "All those previous drafts didn't address what I want."
I said, "What do you want?"
He said, "I want to tell the audience about the true spirit behind Chinese wushu."
I said, "Give me a week." And I came back with a new storyline. And he said, "Oh my God! That's it!" So many years, and then it takes a week to nail it.

Q. It’s like wushu itself. You struggle for years and then you get it.

A. Exactly. And then I looked at all the previous drafts. They were good drafts. But the focus was wrong. Because everyone was so loyal to the historical facts. I said to Jet, "We are not making a biography of this guy. You identify with this guy's philosophy. We take that."
According to history, Huo Yuanjia partly belonged to the Revolution. So the previous draft is all about how he's tangling with government spies and the military. [laughs] Nothing to do with Chinese wushu at all. So, like I told you earlier, I went back to my Joseph Campbell.
And that middle part, in the village? That came from a movie I saw way back when I was in school in Ohio called "The Good Earth." It was shot in 1930-something. But it's all about Chinese peasants, in China. I said, "Maybe Huo Yuanjia should go back to basics in Chinese farming country. All the farmers are so unselfish -- they work so hard to provide food to other human beings, and they embrace nature. Maybe that should be the enlightenment Huo Yuanjia finds."

Q. I do love the scene where he's racing the peasants who are planting rice, and the wind comes up and they stop to enjoy it, and he says, "Oh! I can get ahead of them!" And he plants it all wrong.

A. [laughs] It's like kids, isn't it? "You're not watching, so I'm doing it!"
_______________




RONNY YU,
CITIZEN OF THE WORLD

Q. Do you still live in Australia?

A. No. I call myself a world resident now. I spend a few months in Australia because my family's there -- my mom's there and my sister's there -- and I spend a few months in Hong Kong and a few months in L.A….

Q. What's your take on the Australian film industry?

A. That's a big pool of talent. And unfortunately, anyone who has success moves on to L.A. I don't think people in Australia embrace enough of their own movies. Not like in Korea. Korean, man -- I'm telling you.

Q. Korea's exciting right now.

A. They are. They don't care about American movies. They want to support their own films. I just learned about this one movie called "The Host." In South Korea alone, it made over 100 million [in unspecified currency]. Now that is a statement.
Right now, I do think the world is dominated by American movies. But it all depends on the local markets, and what they want to do. Do they want to support their own films or do they want to be A-listers?

Q. "Oldboy" was just about my favorite movie I saw last year.

A. But that movie would not be made in Hollywood. If you pitched it, they'd say, "Are you crazy? Are you on crack or something?" [laughs]

Q. There was talk of a remake with Nicolas Cage.

A. I think they'd be watering that down a lot. [laughs]
_______________




MONEY and AUTHORITY
and BEAUTIFUL VAMPIRES

Q. How much more authority do you enjoy as a director in China or Hong Kong?

A. It's great. Total control. I can do whatever I want without, like, 10 people standing behind me saying, "Hey, Ronny -- why don't you move the camera over there?" or something.
But again -- I can understand why people have so much fear, because of the expense in Hollywood. It’s so big compared to China. They're afraid they might lose money that they want to be at the controls, so they have security. In China, our movies don't cost that much, so the director can experiment.

Q. George Lucas recently said he thinks the blockbuster era is going to end -- he doesn't think any Hollywood movie will cost more than $15 million in a couple of decades.

A. Creativity doesn't equal money. The more money, the less creativity you have -- because there's so much fear factoring behind it. It restrains you from exploring new areas.
That's why the movie I'm prepping now -- an adaptation of a Japanese animation called "Blood: The Last Vampire" -- is not a big-budget movie like "Freddy vs. Jason." I want to keep it small. We're trying to finance it ourselves and find the financing ourselves. I want to do something different, so we can surprise the audience. I don't want to do a vampire movie with the same-old same-old.

Q. What's different about it?

A. Everything. The look. All the action sequences. I think the audience, like me, is tired of vampire movies being dark, gloomy.

Q. Like "Underworld"?

A. Yeah. I want this to be the most beautiful vampire movie, but also the most haunting and violent. And violence doesn't always happen in dark corners. Look at our wars -- they all happen in daylight, in beautiful sunlight.
But I won’t be able to do that in America. That's why I'm trying to keep it independent.
_______________




JET LI's SENSE-MEMORY EXERCISE

Q. Getting back to "Fearless": It struck me that you would never see a Hollywood action star make a movie like this -- where they had to embrace so much sensitivity and anguish and humility. Where their character learns to stop and feel the breeze. I can't think of an American action actor who would submit himself to that.

A. I agree. People build up so many boundaries; they tie their own hands together. They all second-guess the audience. That's why I love "Unforgiven" so much.
When I was on the set with Jet, I would say, "Forget about performing. Look inside you for the truth. The camera will capture that." I always asked him to go back to his life experiences. I remember when we shot the scene where he sees his daughter die, I told him to go back to the Christmas where he almost died with his daughter, during the tsunami. He almost drowned with his two daughters. I said, "Go back. What if your daughters died right in front of you?" And he responded to that.
I'm so satisfied that he's not just an action hero. He has dramatic range that no one had tapped yet. If you look at his Hollywood movies, it's like, "Okay. Just kick some ass. And don't react -- just have a stone-cold look." They thought that's what the audience wanted.

Permalink

Posted: Sat - September 23, 2006 at 07:18 PM        

|

©