95a-96d Are the sophists teachers of virtues? Meno: I don’t think so. Gorgias: you should turn people into clever speakers. Contradictory hints from the poets: virtue can, and cannot, be taught. There seem to be no teachers of virtue, and therefore no learners. Virtue cannot be taught. How, then, do good men come to be?

95

S: I think, Meno, that Anytus is angry, and I am not the least bit surprised. He thinks, first of all, that I am slandering these men; next, he thinks he is one of them. If it ever occurs to him what slander really is, his anger will evaporate, but the light hasn’t dawned yet. So you tell me now, aren’t there good men and true to be found among your people?

M: Certainly.

S: Well, then, do they make themselves available to the young as teachers? Do they agree that they are teachers, and that virtue can be taught?

M: No, by Zeus, Socrates; sometimes you can hear them say it can be taught; other times, that it cannot.

S: Should we say that they are teachers of this subject, when they do not even agree on this point?

M: I do not think so, Socrates.

S: Furthermore, do you think these sophists – who alone profess to be so crafty and wise – are teachers of virtue?

M: This is what I admire most in Gorgias, Socrates – that you would never hear him promising such a thing. Indeed, he makes fun of others when he hears them making this claim. He says you should turn people into clever speakers.

S: You do not think, then, that the sophists are teachers of virtue?

M: I cannot say, Socrates; like most people, at times I think they are, at other times I think they are not.

S: Are you aware that it isn’t just you – and lots of other public figures – who think sometimes that virtue can be taught, sometimes that it can’t be. The poet Theognis says the very same thing?

M: In which verses?

S: In his elegiacs, where he says:

"And with those men eat, and drink, and with them
go about, and please those whose power is great.
For it is from the good that you will learn good; if you mingle with wicked men you will lose even what wit you possess."

You see how here he speaks as if virtue can be taught?

M: So it seems.

S: Elsewhere, he changes his tune: "if this could be done," he says, "and wit implanted in a man," those who could do this "would collect wages great and many." Furthermore:

"Never would come from good father evil son, for he would be persuaded by wise words. But by teaching you will never make an evil man good."

96

You do see that the poet is contradicting himself concerning the subject at hand?

M: He does seem to be.

S: Can you think of any other subject concerning which those who set themselves up as teachers are not only unrecognized as teachers of others, but aren’t even acknowledged to know about the subject themselves? Indeed, they are thought to be poor practitioners of the very thing they profess to profess, while those agreed to be excellent men sometimes say the thing can be taught, sometimes that it cannot? Would you say that people who are so confused about a subject can be effective teachers of it?

M: No, by Zeus, I would not.

S: If, then, neither the sophists nor the noble and good are teachers of this subject, clearly there would be no others?

M: I do not think there are.

S: Where there are no teachers, there are no learners?

M: I think it’s as you say.

S: We agreed that a subject boasting neither teachers nor learners is not teachable?

M: We have so agreed.

S: And there seem to be no teachers of virtue anywhere to be found?

M: That is so.

S: If there are no teachers, there are no learners?

M: That seems so.

S: Then virtue cannot be taught?

M: Apparently not, if we have looked into this business correctly. I am led to wonder, Socrates, whether there are no good men either, or in what way good men come to be.

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