Transcript of Nov. 25 Second Life Roundtable Discussion.
Location: Montclair State Virtual Campus
Topic: Openspace policies and education
Iggy's Note: I've combined remarks for clarity and eliminated many personal remarks for yes/no replies unless they clarify a remark. I've also added links to URLs in the transcript (all will open in new tabs or windows).
AJ Brooks: We'll start our meeting as we usually do. Please introduce yourself. Tell us who you are, where you are from, and what you do.
AJ Brooks: No need to wait for others to type - go ahead and enter your information right away, we can all catch up in chat history.
AJ Brooks: I am AJ Kelton, I'm the Director of Emerging Instructional Technology for the College of Humanities and Social Sciences at Montclair State University and the Coordinator of the Second Life Project for the College of Education and Human Services, also at MSU.. We're located in northern New Jersey, just fourteen miles from midtown Manhattan.
Fiona Wobbit: Susannah Tucson, AZ
Southern Georgia: i manage Virtual Education SIM which has one OS
Topher Zwiers is an instructional technologist at a 2 year college in Houston, TX.
Chana Kiranov: Chana Campos, Austin, TX - Open Architectures and the Open Focus Group director
Southern Georgia: i also have the Freebee Mall here
Robby Kowalski: Robby Dittmann, Enrollment Counselor for the Online Division at Darton College in Albany, Georgia.
Profdan Netizen: I'm Dan Holt, a professor at Lansing Community College, Lansing, MI. I teach fy comp, creative writing and an occasional film class.
Profdan Netizen: Also, have taught fully online classes for 11 years, yet to teach in SL.
Gef Bookmite: Gef, lecturer of f2f and distance students, parent, & Aussie
Prospero Linden: Rob Knop, former professor of physics & astronomy, now a Linden, still associated with MICA (http://www.mica-vw.org)
AJ Brooks: copme on folks - don't be shy
Southern Georgia: i am also a mathematics teacher in RL
Zotarah Shepherd: I am a MA in Education (technology and psychology) student at Sonoma State University in northern California working an a curriculum project: Teaching and Learning Life-Skills in Second Life. I plan to buy an island of Immersive Interactive Educational builds about Life-skills for teachers and parents.
Kev Juno: Kevin Lowey - University of Saskatchewan. Blackboard LMS service manager in the IT department. Involved in all sorts of learning technologies.
rathlin Zeno: Is an alt for Jeremy Kemp at San Jose State University
Oronoque Westland: Hi, I teach Caribbean history at Hunter College in NY...just completed a second master's in educational technology
Chana Kiranov: I'm new at this - I might fall over...and I'm already recovering from a broken foot in RL... :-)
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I'm Joe Essid, U of Richmond Writing Center
AJ Brooks: who else?
Eneias Pessoa: Eneias Pessoa (RL VirgÃlio A. P. Machado) is a Professor of Industrial Engineering at the Faculdade de CiÃ(tm)ncias e Tecnologia of the Universidade Nova de Lisboa, Portugal.
AJ Brooks: bem vindo, Machado
AJ Brooks: :-)
AJ Brooks: is that everyone?
AJ Brooks: Ok - thanks everyone. Oh, one final note - it is really hard for me to keep up with IMs while I run the meeting, but I promise to get back to anyone who IMs me as soon after the meeting as I can.
Leondra Larsson: I am a specialist for students with disabilities.... at a public high school
AJ Brooks: so - lets get right into it
AJ Brooks: recently Linden Lab announced a pricing change.
Lorelei Junot: Lori Bell, Alliance Library System/Info Island
AJ Brooks: some folks who had promised to keep their part of an honor arrangement were not
AJ Brooks: and were using up resources they were not entitled to
AJ Brooks: prompting a massive increase in the reduced pricing.
AJ Brooks: am I good so far on this?
AJ Brooks: ok
Leondra Larsson: yes
AJ Brooks: after a public outcry
Fiona Wobbit: yes
Southern Georgia: yes in fact it is from $75 usd to $125usd
AJ Brooks: they changed the decision, somewhat
Oronoque Westland: it seemed to me that LL was not totally clear on how they expected the OS to be used
AJ Brooks: they said that those who followed the rules could remain at the lower price for a while
AJ Brooks: but that some would ahve to convert to full sims
AJ Brooks: and others would get reduced but higher than original pricing
AJ Brooks: it seems fair but folks are still upset
Robby Kowalski: os?
AJ Brooks: we have some of those folks here
AJ Brooks: open sim
Southern Georgia: and no more reduced pricing for educational purposes
AJ Brooks: SG want to explain?
Leondra Larsson: yes, I rent in an open sim
Prospero Linden: os = openspace in this context
Southern Georgia: "We will no longer offer an educational or non-profit discount for new Openspaces. As mentioned earlier, this is due to the increased back end resource required for us to support Openspaces in the way that they are now being used. For the small number of Educators that already have Openspaces, we will be contacting you directly to discuss this change."
Leondra Larsson: yes
Prospero Linden: "opensim" is an open source project to develop a simulator
Leondra Larsson: open space
Prospero Linden: not to be confused
Southern Georgia: quoting LL
Prospero Linden believes that there is an educational discount for homesteads, though, isn't there? What was announced?
Leondra Larsson: misspoke
Lorelei Junot: yes, they did say it would be $66 per month upon renewal instead of the 37.50 per month
Southern Georgia: all the dialogue and SLurl are in the box
AJ Brooks: so - before we get too far into this
AJ Brooks: i have a straw poll
AJ Brooks: by saying YES - how many people here have been impacted by this?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Question: Didn't LL reduce the prices for island some time ago--for full sims?
Marc Rexen: Yes
Southern Georgia: YES
Robby Kowalski: YES
Chana Kiranov: yes
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: No
Profdan Netizen: no
Leondra Larsson: yes
Gef Bookmite: not yet
Topher Zwiers: Ig - full sim price was decreased at end of 1Q or 2Q.
Topher Zwiers: No
Zotarah Shepherd: not yet
Prospero Linden started being impacted months and months ago after restrictions on who and how many openspaces could be bought, and people started buying openspaces to do what they should have done with a full sim....
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: thanks Topher
Robby Kowalski: clarification...
AJ Brooks: would each of you saying yes also be kind enough to explain your circumstance, so we all understand - what you had, what it changed to, and how that will impact you?
Lorelei Junot: YES
Marc Rexen: Open SIM, bailed from it, now can't recommend it for teaching.
Robby Kowalski: do you mean have suffered an increase or will have our efforts impacted because the cost has gone up?
Lorelei Junot: we have about 10 open spaces we will not be able to renew because of the price increase
AJ Brooks: yes to both
AJ Brooks: or either
Leondra Larsson: I've rented a plot in an open sim for 6 months
Robby Kowalski: I was hoping to get my college to increase our presence, but with our budget being slashed, the price increase has delayed, if not killed, that effort.
AJ Brooks: ok - so the big impact is - you can't renew, most of you
Leondra Larsson: owner does not know what he wants to do, polled us yesterday
Prospero Linden: Lorelei : can you convert some fraction of them (one or two, say) to full regions?
Lorelei Junot: we are looking at consolidating some things and moving some of the things from open spaces to full sims
Southern Georgia: RL economy impacts SL land affordability
Lorelei Junot: we really liked the open spaces because we were able to grow more quickly and put some smaller projects on open spaces
Oronoque Westland: /I have been impacted indirectly. I do not rent or own an open SIM but as an educator I have benefitted from the Open SIMs developed by others. Many of these are closing down or will close in the next few months.
AJ Brooks: well - wait - SG - that is NOT what prompted this tho
Prospero Linden: NOTE about terminology -- "openspace" is the four-servers-per-cpu, lower-prim-limit, lower-usage-limit type of sim
Lorelei Junot: We are also facing budget problems as well, so the price increase combined with the budget problems means not much growth
Prospero Linden: "open SIM" is a different server software, not part of Second Life
Leondra Larsson: so I am looking at my options. I want to build and have a home... so it is recreational use I suppose. As long as the monthly fee is less than my TV access I'm OK.
AJ Brooks: my question would be - is there a reason restrictions were not put on open space users from the start - to avoid this happening?
Lorelei Junot: because of our budget problems we are also looking at consolidation of and fewer regular sims
Margaret Michalski: I am surprised that there is no limit on free accounts
AJ Brooks: i think that is something many people have been asking, or at least I've been hearing that. How did this happen, initially
Oronoque Westland: /I am talking about open space, then...whatever the SL term is
AJ Brooks: OS = open space
AJ Brooks: in this discussion today
Leondra Larsson: I think where I am is in compliance.. 3 plots per sim
AJ Brooks: as Prospero said - opensim is an open source virtual world project
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: gets confusing--then there's OpenLife, an alternative metaverse
Topher Zwiers: What aspects of the "honor arrangement" (AJ's words) were not being honored? OpenSpace operators not honoring prim limits? others?
AJ Brooks: so - why is this so upsetting those folks
AJ Brooks: yes, chris - building malls on OS sims
Southern Georgia: its the outrageous rate increase AJ
Marc Rexen: Clubs, lots of high-traffic clubs opened up on openspace sims.
AJ Brooks: lots of people were doing it
rathlin Zeno: I thought "prim limits" were built into the servers?
Prospero Linden: It wasn't prim limits, since those were technically impossible to go past... although there was a bug for a while.
Leondra Larsson: seeing what one can get away with...
AJ Brooks: well - not for the open space sims
Prospero Linden: But, openspace regions were never intended for high-traffic use.
Prospero Linden: The description of them included that.
Leondra Larsson: huge prims... scripts
Topher Zwiers: problem then was the traffic...
Topher Zwiers: right.
Zotarah Shepherd: If OpenSpace owners are not honoring prim limits why can't LL just return prims like they do for overlimit full sims?
Leondra Larsson: having a party
Marc Rexen: Correct, but folks quickly found out that they could handle 50+ AV's.
AJ Brooks: i thought it was that OS users were not keeping to their 1/4 prim limit
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: wasn't the spirit of OS sims to have mostly open land--wilderness, so on? I visited Hollow Earth; he's in compliance w/ a cavern and one shop he runs
Prospero Linden: Marc : well, they couldn't really. IF they had it, they would grief 15 other openspace regions.
Topher Zwiers: There is a requirement to already own a sim to be eligible for OS correct?
Prospero Linden: Topher, yes
AJ Brooks: really? i didn't know that
Southern Georgia: 4 OS per regular SIM
AJ Brooks: ya learn something new every day
Marc Rexen: True, but there are many large land areas, with one club, and few people.
Oronoque Westland: /it seems to me that even if budget were not a major constraint the decision by LL to enforce stricter limits on how OS is used would negatively impact some of the educational users
Leondra Larsson: ppl want to push the limits
Marc Rexen: What I suggested was allowing an entire "block of SIMs" to be purchased.
Southern Georgia: agreed Oron
Prospero Linden: If it's a large land area with a few people -- and by a few, I mean "less than 10" -- it's not that big an abuse. But we were seeing a lot of openspace regions being purchased to do full-sim kinds of things with.
Marc Rexen: Then it was the landowner that took the hit for high traffic.
Marc Rexen: ...maybe not possible?
Topher Zwiers: were there every any limits on traffic for OS?
AJ Brooks: so the large number of avatars was causing the problems?
Southern Georgia: why penalize all of SL residents for only a few who abuse the OS
Prospero Linden: AJ, that was part of it, yes.
Topher Zwiers: if the prim counts could be enforced, seems like the traffic would be the issue.
Southern Georgia: LL should have enforced the rules for those few
AJ Brooks: well - from what I heard, it was not just a few - it was A LOT!
Prospero Linden: I have to say that I'm not the right person to give official answers on this, and I'm probably talking too much already.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Oronque...yes. But LL would have a tough job checking up on everyone, even if they stayed w/in prim limits.
Prospero Linden: I can tell you some technical things.
AJ Brooks: please do
Prospero Linden: The business decisions were well above me, and not something I was involved in or that I completely understand.
Southern Georgia: i dont think educators generally abused the OS resource
Robby Kowalski: I don't understand the technical stuff, so maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like we're punishing everyone for the sins of some.
Prospero Linden: Re: why didn't we have more technical limits : historically, openspaces weren't that big a problem, because they weren't as widely available.
Prospero Linden: You were limited in the number of openspace sims you could purchase.
Marc Rexen: It was also causing financial problems for real sim owners, be they Linden, Anshe, whatever.
Prospero Linden: So, they tended to be only something like 1/4 or less of the total number of sims out there, and didn't cause too much server load.
Marc Rexen: Openspace was too good of a deal.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: And isn't part of it that OS sims are on older hardware you folks plan to retire?
Prospero Linden: When we relaxed the requirements for openspace ownership, we didn't anticipate the explosion in their purchase, nor that people who really needed a full island would purchase and use openspace.
Prospero Linden: In retrospect, that was probably a mistake, but there you have it.
Southern Georgia: well with regards to hardware
Oronoque Westland: SG, by way of example...let's say an educator sets up a display on an OS well within the prim limit, but I want to bring my class of 30 to see it...that would be an issue under the LL policy as I understand it
Prospero Linden: It's not trivial to add in things like different avatar limits, etc. Not hard, but not trivial.
Southern Georgia: LL is now upgrading to all class 5 server
Marc Rexen: It was, and I do agree with the move the Lindens made to limit them.
Marc Rexen: This stuff costs.
Prospero Linden: That is being done now for the homestead/openspace products that will come out in January.
AJ Brooks: Lets thank Prospero for coming, he s a big supporter of higher education and comes knowing he might get some flack
AJ Brooks: so lets be kind to him, understanding he is one employee in a HUGE comapny
Topher Zwiers: It's not just the fact that you're punishing many for the offenses of a few.. The problem is that the price increases only artificially solve the problem. The price increase resolves the issue by hopefully pricing offenders out of the OS market, but that's likely not reality. Educators are the ones priced out. Unless there's a technical upgrade - to support more traffic per OS - that coincides with the rpice increase, the increase is only an increase.
Southern Georgia: i protest because of the enormous rate increase
Gef Bookmite: agree aj
AJ Brooks: so its ok to be frustrated - but lets try to not direct that at him. :-)
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: right--I think Prospero was brave to be here and I want to thank him for that.
AJ Brooks: well - let me ask you this
Prospero Linden: Topher : again, I don't understand the financials of all of it. But, ultimately, we need people to buy what they need. Those who looked at openspace and regular regions saw that people were overusing openspace when really they needed a full region
AJ Brooks: educators usually teach classes right?
Zotarah Shepherd: Glad to see you here Prospero.
Robby Kowalski: Hear, Hear. I truly appreciate Prospero coming tonight.
Prospero Linden: The new openspace/homestead/full region division gives you more flexibility.
Marc Rexen: What they have learned is folks like large plots, and will accept fewer prims...a useful thing to know.
AJ Brooks: and classes have more students than the allowable limit, it woudl seem
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: that's true, AJ--unless you have a very small seminar
AJ Brooks: so what is the attraction to education, in particular, for these
Oronoque Westland: or a very wealthy private school
Prospero Linden: Re: servers : I've read that we run openspace on older servers. That's not true. Openspace and regular regions run o nthe same servers. Each server runs *either* openspace *or* regular regions, not both on each server... but each time we reboot the server, it can easily switch between one and the other.
AJ Brooks: what is the educational purpose here - trying to wear another hat
Southern Georgia: to serve as satellite venues for the main sim
Profdan Netizen: What is the limit on OS lands--10?
AJ Brooks: but for what, SG?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: LOL--my dean cancels anything UNDER 10 :)
Marc Rexen: You could still, theoretically, get to 80 at the corners...an old trick that clubs use.
Southern Georgia: meetings
Prospero Linden: I don't know what avatar concurrency limits there will be on openspace or homestead regions
AJ Brooks: if you can't hold a class there - what is the purpose?
Southern Georgia: marketing
Southern Georgia: socials
Southern Georgia: you name it
AJ Brooks: socials - more people than allowed
AJ Brooks: marketing - attracts users - more people than allowed
AJ Brooks: if they want OSs to be at about 10 users
Southern Georgia: if the limit is reached no one else can TP in
AJ Brooks: I don't see the applicability
Lorelei Junot: we were using it for smaller specialized collections
AJ Brooks: i'm not trying to take LLs side - I"m playing devils advocate
AJ Brooks: trying to understand the OTHER side
Oronoque Westland: the devil is a busy man
AJ Brooks: lol
AJ Brooks: idle hands
Southern Georgia: its simple math
Southern Georgia: the LL make their money from land
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: nor am I, AJ--in fact, I've been critical of the OS decision regarding the sailing and flying communities in SL
Robby Kowalski: how can you type with idle hands?
Southern Georgia: and now they are making more $$
Profdan Netizen: Not if people bail.
AJ Brooks: ok - here's the root of my question
Southern Georgia: as if millions of $$ is not enough for LL
Robby Kowalski: Well, in LL's defense, they're a company, right?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Profdan...where will they go? right--and let's be mindful that other "solutions" like OpenLife are not there yet
AJ Brooks: why should educators, over other groups, get a special discount on OS sims?
Southern Georgia: yes a for profit company but
Southern Georgia: mega profit??
Robby Kowalski: AJ: because we don't have the profit generation to fund the expense that a company has.
Profdan Netizen: Do educators get a discount for regular sims?
Prospero Linden: Profdan, yes
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: I've got an OpenLife avi--he's still barefoot and helmet-haired. Right now, SL is it for we educators who want to create content.
Lorelei Junot: AJ, most educators in this day and time are financially strapped as it is - any kind of discount we can get is important and appreciated
Robby Kowalski: Because the discount is tax deductible for LL.
Marc Rexen: A SIM, even a full-price, full-prim, one is reasonably priced.
Prospero Linden: Educational institutions, that is
AJ Brooks: i get that - but what educational use is the open space sim if its only supposed to hold 10 people?
Robby Kowalski: And because the more students we force into SL, the more potential customers they have.
Southern Georgia: agreed Robby
AJ Brooks: yes - regular sim - 700 for edu, 1000 for others, 150 monthly for edu, 300 monthly for others
Oronoque Westland: let's say someone uses an OS for ocean front..I cannot take my class to study aquaculture, the coral, whatever may be there...no prim problem, but too many AVs
Southern Georgia: so why did the Lindens remove all discounts for educators?
Robby Kowalski: Maybe I bought into a rumor. Is the educational price for full sims not going up?
AJ Brooks: i get the financial part guys - and for full sims that makes sense. What I'm having trouble grasping is how Open Space sims help higher education in particular - if they are supposed to be limited to 10 avatars
Southern Georgia: whats the reasoning behind that
Southern Georgia: i really wanna know
Prospero Linden: To my knowledge, there is no change in the educational pricing for full sims
AJ Brooks: i had not heard of any change on that front either
Southern Georgia: will be after Jan 1
Prospero Linden: I am pretty sure there will be no educational discount for openspace sims. I'm not sure what the status is with homestead sims.
rathlin Zeno: because we're difficult? ;-)
AJ Brooks: we've received no notice on that
Southern Georgia: according to the blog
Robby Kowalski: OS sims make great sandboxes and training centers when you're first trying to talk someone into funding the project.
Oronoque Westland: that's just it...with the AV limit they are good for luxury use only as far as I can see
Prospero Linden: Southern : reference please?
Leondra Larsson: open sims.. were not for educational purposes
Southern Georgia: it is in the box
AJ Brooks: YES!!! Luxury use only
Lorelei Junot: I received notification that on the homesteads instead of 37.50 per month as they are now, they will be $66 per month
Prospero Linden: Southern : can you type the URL?
AJ Brooks: training center and snadboxs use more resources then the open space is intended for
Lorelei Junot: they did change their mind and offer the educational discount on homesteasds
Southern Georgia: click the box for the notecard
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: keep in mind that LL used to offer classroom space for a semester free of charge--they may still do that. I don't think they are trying to milk us.
Southern Georgia: they are Ign
AJ Brooks: I am SURE LL is not trying to milk the EDU community
Lorelei Junot: at first there was no educational discount on the homesteads then they said it would be $66 per month
Leondra Larsson: sailing events... homes.. with low prims, scripts, etc
Southern Georgia: $75 to $125???
Southern Georgia: i think so.........
Lorelei Junot: discount for educators
Robby Kowalski: AJ, I've been hearing a huge buzz that educational discounts on everything were being reduced.
AJ Brooks: I"ve not heard that - but that doesn't mean its not true
Prospero Linden: Southern : nowhere in there does it say that the eduational discount for full sims is going to be removed.
AJ Brooks: if they want to force the community out - they will raise the prices
Prospero Linden: To my knowledge, there is no plan to remove the educational discount for full sims.
AJ Brooks: what keeps people HERE is the community
Profdan Netizen: How are homesteads going to be different from OS or regular sims, and what educational purpose might they serve?
AJ Brooks: and I think the folks at LL know that
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: the outrage I'm seeing as a journalist covering SL is coming from folks such as aviators, sailors, and racers who used OS as intended.
Prospero Linden: homesteads will have a higher prim limit than openspace. I'm not sure if they will have a different maximum avatar or script limit.
Robby Kowalski: Well that changes just about everything for me. :)
Southern Georgia: LL quoted, "We will no longer offer an educational or non-profit discount for new Openspaces. As mentioned earlier, this is due to the increased back end resource required for us to support Openspaces in the way that they are now being used. For the small number of Educators that already have Openspaces, we will be contacting you directly to discuss this change."
Prospero Linden: Yes, for ****openspaces*****
Prospero Linden: That says nothing about regular sims
AJ Brooks: open spaces
Prospero Linden: What's more, that's out of date
AJ Brooks: right - what he said
Prospero Linden: The original announcement only had a change in openspace pricing
Southern Georgia: give us the updated info please
Prospero Linden: The later announcement introduced homestead and openspace products as separate things
AJ Brooks: AND - and I mean a BIG AND HERE
AJ Brooks: this is why MEETING LIKE THIS are SO IMPORTANT
Robby Kowalski: I came here thinking I was going to have to pitch higher prices to the luddites I'm working with.
AJ Brooks: so we can share the teanscript with the folks at LL and so they can see how we feel and in what numbers
Prospero Linden: http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/11/05/a-letter-to-second-life-residents/
Robby Kowalski breathes a sigh of relief
Southern Georgia: thank you Prospero
AJ Brooks: all I know - is - LL knows that OpenSim, MetaGrid, and others are on their heels
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Thanks for that, Prospero--I'll run it in the blog at our paper--
Lorelei Junot: there is now a discount on homesteads for educators
AJ Brooks: all it would take is some VW to be close to this, and folks might consider switching
Lorelei Junot: although it was not in the original announcement
Lorelei Junot: the discount was reinstated in the second announcement
Oronoque Westland: Openspaces are intended for very low-impact use only. They share 4 CPUs per server, and support a limited number of objects. When the new changes go into place, they will support 750 prims and only 10 avatars, and will likely place limits on scripts running in the Region, as well as being unable to use event postings and classifieds.
Homestead regions are for quiet residential or light commercial use. They are not intended for events, malls, or other high-impact uses. When new changes go into place, they will support 3750 prims and 20 avatars, and will likely also have script limits. https://support.secondlife.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=4417&task=knowledge&questionID=5650
AJ Brooks: TY, O
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: AJ, I'm exploring alt VWs....ain't nuffin' even close yet
AJ Brooks: that we know of
AJ Brooks: thats all I can say. :-)
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: true...more will emerge
Prospero Linden: Ah, OK, I didn't realize that avatar limits had been announced.
Oronoque Westland: since homesteads will have a 20 AV limit, it still can't hold one of my classes
Southern Georgia: yes you can O
AJ Brooks: well - that not the point of these OS sims
AJ Brooks: from what I understand
Southern Georgia: just will not allow more than 20 avatars to attend
AJ Brooks: they are for open spaces
AJ Brooks: like woods
Profdan Netizen: Our writing classes have a seat limit of 20, so students can attend, but I won't be able to!
AJ Brooks: and water
Lorelei Junot: January 5, 2009 – non-compliant Openspaces will transition to Homesteads and the maintenance fees will go from $75 to $95 per month. We will offer an educational discount to qualified educators on the new Homestead product. The discount amount will be the same as Private Regions, roughly 30%.
Prospero Linden: Hmm
AJ Brooks: TY Lori
Prospero Linden: The current private region discount is 1/2... I am not aware that it's changing.
AJ Brooks: its not anymore
AJ Brooks: when they lowered the sim price to 1000 they didn't lower the edu pricing
Southern Georgia: so there ya go
Zotarah Shepherd: Have the class at a OS border and that increases classes on Open Spaces to 40.
Robby Kowalski: As long as it says "non-compliant", who can complain?
Prospero Linden: Well, the setup fee has been 30% for a long time. The tier, however, is 1/2
AJ Brooks: the tier is 1/2, yes
Prospero Linden: By the end of a year, you've spent more on maintenance than the original cost :)
AJ Brooks: 1000 vs 700 start up, 300 v 150 monthly
AJ Brooks: yes
AJ Brooks: by a lot
AJ Brooks: but that is true for any service
AJ Brooks: like the phone
AJ Brooks: or cable
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Tier fees are the killer for many non-edu folks I've met. Seems that in a time of financial crisis, lower fees help us too
AJ Brooks: this is just a service, when you think about it
AJ Brooks: so - educators - where are all these students?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: slacking
Zotarah Shepherd: It is easier to get funding and grants for initial costs than for ongoing fees.
Oronoque Westland: waiting for me in half an hour
AJ Brooks: show me the money! LOL a lot of educators talk about what they HOPE to do - but how many are really doing it
Robby Kowalski: Its just a reflection of the real economy. People are going to lose their homes.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: My 15 are building and doing a photo exhibit in SL
Southern Georgia: agreed Robby
AJ Brooks: ok - thats one - who else
Prospero Linden: Zotarah : I remember noticing when I was at Vanderbilt that there were all sorts of opportunities for "seed money", and very few opportunities to get the money that that seed money was supposed to help you get....
AJ Brooks: who else around this table has students here in SL
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: small class--we got 2 more at Richmond this semester
Robby Kowalski: I know several other schools in my state are doing it.
AJ Brooks: MSU has 4 classes in SL this semester and most likely will have 6 next semesters
AJ Brooks: so lets say 25%
AJ Brooks: the discounts are going to the other 75% so they can play in sl?
AJ Brooks being devils advocate again today
Southern Georgia: i wonder if MSU is passing the increase of OS onto the students
Margaret Michalski: My institution holds seminars for students in SL but I plan to use it for my dissertation
Oronoque Westland: wicked
AJ Brooks: students don't pay for the SL project
AJ Brooks: and we don't own any open spaces
Prospero Linden: I'm associated with MCIA, who will have their own island (Stella Nova) shortly, purchased with the edu discount through caltech
Southern Georgia: how about in the lab fee's
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: good Q, AJ....I hear a lot of educators here say, for various reasons such as graphics requirements, they cannot bring classes in
Profdan Netizen: Do any of you have fully online classes here in SL?
AJ Brooks: no lab fees for the SL classes
Prospero Linden: I don't know that any classes will be taught there, but there will be meetings of professional astronomers for research purposes, as well as outreach activities.
Oronoque Westland: I plan to bring my students in-world in the Spring...and get the administration interested in using SL to attend conferences
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: our language lab had to shelve a huge project b/c of the client upgrades
Prospero Linden: (I suspect my biweekly "Dr. Knop Talks Astronomy" will move there, for instance.)
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: We will have some mixed RL/SL classes in languages when the lab gets its upgrade--next year
AJ Brooks: well - I say - double what business pay and let EDUs who are TEACHING or holding event have land for free!
AJ Brooks: grab your pitchforks - join me!!!!!
Prospero Linden: heh
Jennette Forager: I have classes at my facility
Ignatius Onomatopoeia gets jug of Moonshine, pitchfork, and torch
Lorelei Junot: AJ I second that! :)
Profdan Netizen: Works for me.
Robby Kowalski: like I said, it's tax deductible!
Jennette Forager: but we are all functioning on a "possible" basis
AJ Brooks: iggy - you leave the hillbillys out of this
Oronoque Westland: /it seems to me some of the RL budget crisis impacting academic institutions can be addressed by doing more in SL, not less
Ignatius Onomatopoeia pouts
Jennette Forager smiles
Prospero Linden: Not me, but some at Linden get daily pleas from people who think that they should have free tier because what they are doing is so (choose one of : good for society, great advertising for LL, educational, etc.)
Topher Zwiers: is it possible to purchase four corner/adjacent openspace sims - get 4x landspace with prims/avs equal to one full island?
Jennette Forager: I see it as a chance to present good work
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Topher, do the math on that...would a full sim be about the same?
Prospero Linden: Topher : you would need four homesteads to get that, and it would be more expensive than purchasing one full region
AJ Brooks: but it would only be 1/4 the land mass
Jennette Forager: and wait out the process of the market stabilizing
Prospero Linden: Yeah -- but, really, for 100 avatars, a regular region is plenty of landmass
AJ Brooks: so four homesteads - are 4x regular sim - with the same prim limit
Southern Georgia: agreed Prospero
Prospero Linden: One good use of "sim boundaries" I've seen is when you have a presentation or performance, and you put the audience in one sim, the performers in another. That way, server-side lag from a large audience won't affect the performers.
Robby Kowalski: how many quarts in a gallon? ;P
Topher Zwiers: that's what I thought.. is more expensive than full region - so I'm seeing the point AJ was making earlier - I just don't see the value or functional use of OS space of educational "institutions" that have learners involved...
AJ Brooks: 16
Topher Zwiers: perhaps more for educators learning and exploring in SL than for institutions.
Zotarah Shepherd: I need to be a non-profit to buy an educational sim .It has been hard for me to form a non-profit, since I need more board members, so my SL educational MA project is on hold til then. I am worried that prices will increase by the time I get it formed.
Oronoque Westland: the other impact is that as the pricing changes cause some institutions to consolidate, and give up OS's...the opportunity for educator's without institutional support to rent may decline
AJ Brooks: when companies work out a pricing scheme - they don't expect that to last forever
AJ Brooks: prices HAVE to go up at some point
AJ Brooks: and in two years, for me, no pricing has gone up
AJ Brooks: I can't say that about my cable company
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: We get some conflicting statements out of LL's CEO about the priority of the company. He noted that 80% of LL's effort is going to the consumer market.
AJ Brooks: crap - I've had two price increases in the last 11 months
Southern Georgia: yes AJ but not at the rate they are imposing on us
Topher Zwiers: Oron..right... OS may be valuable to allow individual educators a way to have an individual /personal presence in SL.
Zotarah Shepherd: Yes that is what worries me.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: but the SL homepage emphasizes business, edu, gov't
Profdan Netizen: Well, we are in a decelerating economy right now. Prices don't necessarily need to go up.
AJ Brooks: for the open space, SG - not for full sims
Prospero Linden: If you want an individual presence and need fewer sims, consider getting some mainland
Prospero Linden: fewer prims, I mean
Prospero Linden: All of my alt's land is mainland. (Kinda nutty, too, because I have >1 sim worth, but I would get an employee discount if I bought an island....)
AJ Brooks: if I had to guess - OS sims make up a VERY small percentage of users
AJ Brooks: so the price is going up for a VERY small percentage of users
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: drat--here's the URL for that interview: http://dusanwriter.com/index.php/2008/11/21/interview-mark-kingdon-second-life-linden-lab/
Zotarah Shepherd: I have mainland property but not enough prim use left.
Topher Zwiers: what concerns me, in a more theoretical manner, is the "free market" within SL being ultimately controlled by the pricing of a service by (although rightful) owners of that "free market" - decreasing prices is as much a concern as increasing prices..
AJ Brooks: i now that is no consolation when that small percentage includes you. :-)
Topher Zwiers: (just watch the news ;-)
Robby Kowalski: I think LL shold bail us all out. :)
Prospero Linden: Ugh
AJ Brooks: well - as we approach the end of todays meting - a reminder that we meet here each week on Tuesdays from 2:30-3:30pm SLT. Next week we will be discussing the premium account - is it worth anything and what can be done to improve its value
Prospero Linden: Except that, unlike the Federal Government, we can't spend more money than we have....
Profdan Netizen: Just don't call yourself a car company or you'll get squat, Robby!
AJ Brooks: if you'd like to stay and hang out - I'll be here - no need to rush off
AJ Brooks: but I just want to let those who have to leave know its fine to do so. :-)
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: note this from M. Linden--and I liked it when I read it...he noted that people need something familiar--living space
Jennette Forager: Limted resources do have such a lovely way of focusing us all......
Robby Kowalski: Well, if we're closing, I want to thank Prospero again.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: He also noted that "We will never rent server space."
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: so the Lab does not think of itself as a service provider, per se.
Jennette Forager: Yes...so nice to have you here Prospero...so helpful
Margaret Michalski: Are your projects grant funded?
AJ Brooks: yes - Prospero is a long-time supporter of our group and I personally want to thank him, publicly - which I have done private any number of times.
Prospero Linden: Well, there's a difference between not renting server space and not being a service provider at all....
AJ Brooks: Margaret - the money for our project comes from my academic unit
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: true, but I don't think of you folks the way I do, say, Verizon
AJ Brooks: what about the others - how are your projects funded?
Margaret Michalski: My institution did not get many grants because people did not take time out to see what SL is and how it may be useful for education.
AJ Brooks: grants?
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Richmond funds our fees through the I.S. Budget
Robby Kowalski is facing a 6% giveback that could rise to 10%
Prospero Linden: The MICA island is going to be funded out of the discretionary research funds that three or four of the professional astronomers have via their grants.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: it's a fraction of what we pay for something like Blackboard!
AJ Brooks: OMG - yes!
Profdan Netizen: That's an excellent point, Ignatius.
Robby Kowalski: Mine is hidden in the IT budget, and its small enough that no one has noticed it in a while.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Now THERE are some bloodsuckers-Bb
AJ Brooks: i think the funding question is important
Jennette Forager: keep that scale in mind....Blackboard is pretty concerned about it
Oronoque Westland: I have a change purse in my bag that gets me through...but I am trying to get some institutional support
AJ Brooks: where are the rest of you getting your funding from?
Jennette Forager: and rightly so.....
Robby Kowalski: the kindness of strangers
AJ Brooks: lol
Ignatius Onomatopoeia looks around nervously for Blackboard avis with pinstripe suits, Don Corleone hats, and violin cases :)
AJ Brooks: free land programs?
Robby Kowalski: I earned L$250 for helping a grad student with an in-world project.
Jennette Forager laughs at Ignatius
AJ Brooks: we're in protected land, here -Iggy - they are afraid of me dropping a house on them
Zotarah Shepherd: All my funding comes from me so far. Mostly student loans. : /
Oronoque Westland: this isn't Kansas anymore
AJ Brooks: Z???? WOW!!!!!
Topher Zwiers: our executive team recently approved two projects -- our funding is operational, hard funding.
Robby Kowalski: In all seriousness, other than our tiny parcel, I have no funding.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: Our only worry is that anything we do in SL will be subject to the same sort of assessment we do for other classes
Topher Zwiers: or so I'm told.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: and we are still learning what questions to ask here
AJ Brooks: why shouldn't it be, iggy
Robby Kowalski: I can't get funding til the faculty are inolved, and I can't get the faculty involved without funding.
Oronoque Westland: Zo, I suspect there are many of us who are self-funded
Robby Kowalski: I love my job.
Jennette Forager: funding....and being taken seriously for funding it the real measure of how we are doing
AJ Brooks: i was able to get funding because I had the faculty commitment
AJ Brooks: you don't need money to SHOW faculty what they can do here
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: this is a paradigm-shifter, AJ...you need time to figure out a new pedagogy in a place where you CAN drop a house on someone
AJ Brooks: it took me three months
Topher Zwiers: Our two projects got funded, imho, because of one of the two that gained more traction.
AJ Brooks: In january of 07 I came into SL - by April I had three faculty lined up and the college said go ahead on a one-year pilot project
AJ Brooks: that was teh key - a one-year limited duration pilot project
AJ Brooks: then you had a year to prove your stuff
Oronoque Westland: more than half the staff at my College are adjuncts, so we have little access to funds
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: keep in mind that some admins need educating...Eric Reuters is correct...SL is "post buzz" and has a rep that is not wholly savory.
AJ Brooks: buzz - the web started the same way - porno and business
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: To keep funding we have to show them good content and student involvement
Topher Zwiers: It's taken me almost two years to get funding - have had the same problem Rob mentioned...
Profdan Netizen: So did the web in 97.
Robby Kowalski: Most of my supprt comes from an administration that likes us to be doing cool stuff.
AJ Brooks: opps - bull crap
Oronoque Westland: no, no porno
Ignatius Onomatopoeia blushes like a prize-winning watermelon
AJ Brooks: no - not here- lol - I mean in SL
Robby Kowalski: AJ, but how long did it take for a lot fo folks to get their schools on the web.
AJ Brooks: people complain about porno and business in SL - but that is the same way the Web started
Oronoque Westland: are we on the web?
AJ Brooks: years
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: remember 2006, AJ? I met admins who had money thrown at them to buy several islands...I bet that is not the case now
AJ Brooks: I'm not sure they still understand the power of the web
Topher Zwiers: Robby - and that's the other reason why we're getting funding... all three of our campus presidents have turned over in the last 2 years... all three of the new folks are very interested in new technologies and aproaches to teaching.
Robby Kowalski: if people want to complain about business and porno, they just need to walk a block away from post campuses.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: good point, Robby
AJ Brooks: the distance education potential of SL shoudl eb all one needs to convince a suit that this is profitable for the university
Oronoque Westland: I find interest at the Admin level, but not among faculty
Jennette Forager: that is interesting
Robby Kowalski: What oronoque said
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: As with Web 1.0, faculty need incentives and rewards to take risks
Profdan Netizen: But there is one problem with distance ed in SL, at least for community colleges.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: we found that in 1994-6 with the Epiphany Project
Topher Zwiers: As soon as I suggested a collaborative project between our history faculty, local historical libraries and historical societies to build a regional history themed sim - voila! funding was more possible, imho.
Profdan Netizen: under age students.
Oronoque Westland: with so many adjuncts, there is no incentive/compensation/time to innovate
Robby Kowalski: With staff cuts and anger over raises (or lack thereof) folks aren't getting excited about learning new things.
AJ Brooks: with adjuncts - this is true no matter what the technology or expectation
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: true, Oronoque...and adjuncts are even more liable if evals turn sour--teaching with SL is a big risk at first
Oronoque Westland: exactly
Prospero Linden: ugh
Prospero Linden doesn't like the way lots of schools are run.
Topher Zwiers: Profdan - and, for my community college, computer access/tech specs for students at home. we're in a socioeconomically challenged area - well.. .challenged when the rest of the country isn't as much... now it's worse than usual.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: me neither!
Prospero Linden: Hire lots of adjuncts, punish creativity....
Robby Kowalski: The Governor even went after our retirement fund.
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: it's a rotten business
Topher Zwiers: Oron... as an adjunct, I've begged to be allowed to innovate - at NO cost to the school - they won't install apps for me b/c they're not licensed by the College.
Robby Kowalski: It's similar to my years teaching preschool. hehehe
Profdan Netizen: Dual enrolled students, who are attracted to online classes, cannot participate in a class that takes place in SL.
Profdan Netizen: That's a big problem.
Robby Kowalski: budget cuts forced me to use a smaller keyboard!
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: folks--this is one of the best roundtables in a while...but RL beckons
Ignatius Onomatopoeia: take care all