An Interview with Cecil Hirvi and Vivian Jackalope

What do you do with a member of Star Trek's Borg? That is Cecil Hirvi's look and persona: he is one of the cyborg, hive-mind race of villains from the New Generation series stranded in Second Life.

Since Pappy Enoch also claims to be a real person stranded in Second Life (though as hillbilly-philosopher, not cyborg) I used that fact to break the ice: we met beside Pappy's still and moonshine barrel. And drinking is a time-honored social lubricant.

Both Cecil and Vivian Jackalope make films and share them via YouTube. In this interview, I decided to ask them not only about their own work but how film-making in a virtual world might change the phenomenon of "narrowcasting" media to specialized audiences and lead to paying jobs.

Iggy: hello!

Cecil Hirvi: Howdy!

Cecil and Iggy shake hands.

Iggy: This is my corner of the island. . .Pappy's "traps" are out back. . .

Cecil Hirvi: Any moonshine on this island?

Iggy: Sure! Follow me. . .help yourself to a mug.

Cecil takes a swig
White Lightnin' whispers: watch that third sip

Cecil Hirvi: <cough> Just like mother's milk!

Cecil takes a second swig
White Lightnin' whispers: watch that third sip

Iggy: Makes yu want ter talk like a hillbilly.

Cecil Hirvi: Yes, I like to get in touch with my inner hillbilly.

Cecil takes a third swig, staggers, makes faces, and falls to the ground.

Iggy: Oops. I got a snap of that!

Iggy: That was fun!

Cecil Hirvi: Good stuff....where' s the hound dog?

Iggy: Behind me. She doesn't bite.

Iggy: Hmm. . could [moonshine] be a secret Federation weapon?

Cecil Hirvi: Howdy doggy!

Iggy: Pappy hasn't hung out his sign yet. . .he had a "name the dawg" contest and the winner was "Dixie Moonshine"

Cecil Hirvi: A name only granny would love.

Cecil Hirvi: I read your blog a bit....It's for the Richmond paper? Or SL?

Iggy: Both, reallly.

Cecil Hirvi: I was pleased to see that SL is such a big deal in Virginia.

Iggy: Lots of folks apparently [are SLers in Virginia]. . . Pappy's got a contingent of VA fans.

Vivian Jackalope teleports to our spot

Iggy: Hello!

Cecil Hirvi: Iggy this is Vivian Jackalope.

Cecil Hirvi: Vivian--Iggy.

Iggy: Vivian, nice to meet you

Vivian Jackalope: Hello Iggy and Cecil,

Vivian Jackalope: nice to meet you Iggy.

Iggy: My co-author, Beeble, will join us in a bit.

Cecil Hirvi kisses Vivian on the cheek
Vivian Jackalope: smiles

Iggy: I'll be taking snaps during the interview, That ok?

Vivian Jackalope: Yes, that's ok.

Cecil Hirvi: Sure...just be sure to get my good side....which is none.

Iggy: You and pappy :)

Vivian Jackalope giggles

Cecil Hirvi: Vivian is the star of one of my films...but also has a great laugh.

Vivian Jackalope: hahaha, you don't wanna hear it Iggy.

Iggy: You can see from my older interviews that things are pretty free-form.

Iggy: Let's start with a basic Q. How. . . did you both find out about SL?

Cecil Hirvi: u first Viv.

Vivian Jackalope: I found out about it on a lazy raining Sunday afternoon. I was reading a message board and one there mentioned it and I was curious what this is all about.

Cecil Hirvi: I just had heard about it and decided to explore it a bit.

Their answers reveal a common theme among Second Lifers; the company uses viral marketing and media buzz, rather than advertising, to get out the word about the world.

Iggy: I'll pitch this Q to both of you, too.

Iggy: Could you define "machinima" for the general reader?

Iggy: The giant raccoon is about to join us, BTW.

Cecil Hirvi: It's just using a game-type engine to create movie stories.

Cecil Hirvi: Any game...or metaverse can be used to mine digital actors and backgrounds.

Beeble Baxter: Hello Dixie Moonshine!

Cecil Hirvi: Howdy Ms. Baxter.

Iggy: Vivian and Cecil, this is Beeble Baxter, my partner in crime and writing.

Iggy: Oooh. . .tux, Beebs :0

Vivian Jackalope: Hello Beeble Baxter.

Iggy: We are talking about SL filmmaking.

Beeble Baxter: Hello!

Beeble Baxter: Excellent, I need to learn.

Iggy: Cecil does really nice work. Let me ask about that.

Iggy: How did you become a SL film maker?

Cecil Hirvi: Well...I realized there was no money in lap dancing...or "ho" ing...

Beeble Baxter: Hilarious!

Iggy: Sigh. . .Pappy found that out, too :0

Cecil Hirvi: ....so I thought maybe I could transfer my RL skills to SL.

Vivian Jackalope: yes, he knows his way ;-)

Cecil Hirvi: Thank you, Ms. Vivian.

Iggy: You are an independent film-maker, then?

Cecil Hirvi: Yes. For over 15 years.

Iggy: I want to ask about "Dance of the Hunted." Beebs, I'll send you the You Tube link now.

Iggy: Vivian, this is for you, too: What motivated the film?

Vivian Jackalope: Well, it was really a spontaneous kind of thing. . .we both saw the graveyard and talked about this and that.

Beeble Baxter: Viv or Cecil, What do you see as the unique film possibilities offered in SL?

Cecil Hirvi: Ok, Beebe..,What I am realizing is that SL can be the ultimate digital studio...

Iggy nods
.
Cecil Hirvi: ..access to digital actors...and backgrounds and sounds..

Iggy: And not much overhead cost :)

Cecil Hirvi: Correct.

Iggy: How did you get the cool video effects?

Vivian Jackalope: [for "Dance"] Cecil came up with the idea, that I just getting my thoughts into a poem and dance to it.

Vivian Jackalope: The [editing & cuts] were all made by Cecil.


Iggy: Oh, Vivian. . .that takes me to a good Q.

Iggy: Tell me about how you define "cinepoetry."

Cecil Hirvi: Well, I shoot the material and then import into my own editing software which allows for effects.

Vivian Jackalope: It is hard to define poetry.

Beeble Baxter: Good point - and the poetry could be audial or visual.

Iggy: "Dance" is so poetic, too. . .

Vivian Jackalope: It comes out of my heart and with the pictures you get a perfect visual background for it.

Iggy: true. . .My RL Goth friends will love it. Did you intend that audience?

Cecil Hirvi: Well...

Cecil Hirvi: ...I had been making cinepoems for many years...and became quite good in the genre...so it was logical for me to make that as my first SL film.

Vivian Jackalope: We all create a dream in SL and so we can pack our dreams in poetry, visual and with words.

Iggy: Excellent explanation, Vivian.

Beeble Baxter: What do you all think of how SL or your SL movies will change if/when they introduce voice?

Vivian Jackalope: Maybe in the near future we can make it also audio, who knows?

Cecil Hirvi: I'm actively waiting for the audio...and for mouth movement on the avatars.

Cecil Hirvi: THEN it will be really cool!

Beeble Baxter: Do you think anyone will still be communicating this way in SL when voice is active? Will it still be an option?

Cecil Hirvi: Hmmm..interesting Q.

Beeble Baxter: And what are the relative advantages and disadvantages for you as an SL film maker?

Vivian Jackalope: Yes, we could do really animated movies like all the a tomb raider game is getting real, only with different themes.

Cecil Hirvi: Advantages and Disadvantages...

Cecil Hirvi: ...The advantage is I get to make the kinds of movies that are very hard to make in RL.

Cecil Hirvi: ...the disadvantages are dealing with the tech glitches that arise in SL. . .It's like a plane flying over head...ruining the audio.

Vivian Jackalope: About the RL voices on SL and what we do about it.... this all reminds me of, when silent movies started to speak.... many silent movie stars disappeared, because the voice was so awful ;-)

Iggy: Yes. .. the world crashes. . .

Cecil Hirvi: Very nice point Viv!

Cecil Hirvi: But I think the audio features should give us the ability to disguise our voices too.

Iggy: Do you think that LL has the "killer app" here? Why or why not?

Cecil Hirvi: I think so...I was quite surprised that I found it so compelling in so many ways...as long as they keep it for adults only.

Cecil Hirvi: It has so many social benefits too.

Iggy: You mean no one under 18? If so, why?

Cecil Hirvi: Well, kids just are goofing around and really should be out playing...instead of on the computer so much.

Iggy: Good point. [Beeble and I] both fear OL addiction.

Cecil Hirvi: I'm 41 so...and work from home...so this kind of thing fits my age!

Beeble Baxter: I agree with your sentiment that kids should be out playing, and I applaud you for saying so. It seems a rare attitude these days, to see the value in nature with all this cool digital stuff!

Cecil Hirvi: Think of all the senior-shut ins, disabled folks who should use SL.

Iggy: Vivian, your profile shows you are from Germany...do people there talk much about SL?

Vivian Jackalope: Yes, there was a big hype around SL in the media here in Germany.... they always talked about, how easy it would be to make the big money here.....

Iggy: Vivian, do you think that is true? Can many people make real money here? And to you both: will there be money in SL film-making one day?

Vivian Jackalope: I think that is dangerous, because you can't make big money in SL... but, you can learn a lot, how to make money in RL.

Iggy: I see.

Cecil Hirvi: Well, I made my first music video for an Aussie singer...and it paid pretty well.

Beeble Baxter: While I know many will come to make $$$ I am always pleased to meet those who have found other motives for being here - simple play just for fun is very important.

Cecil Hirvi: So, I think I can earn lindens making films for others.

Cecil Hirvi: but yes...this is turning out to be very liberating for an artist like myself.

Iggy: For writers, too. I pitched my blog and the Web editor was thrilled.

Cecil Hirvi: I can explore all sorts of themes..

Vivian Jackalope: For me flmmaking in SL means to learn a lot about filmmaking in RL, as I'm not a professional flimmaker in RL, but I dream to be one in the future... this is the easiest and cheapest way for me to learn about it.... I can do it from home.

Iggy: But is the "general public" ready for SL? Here or in Germany?

Vivian Jackalope: Yes, there is a big German SL community here already and it grows every day.... only I'm not looking for Germany here in SL, I want the whole world.

Vivian laughs.

Beeble Baxter: What a beautiful and noble concept - to want the whole world laughing....now that's a good use for SL!

Iggy: Vivian, I hear you. I like to practice my Spanish here!

Vivian Jackalope: Yes, it is a very good way to improve your language skills.

Beeble Baxter: Iggy, have they met Pappy? Now he'd make a good SL movie star!

Iggy: Pappy is "drinking it off" now in preparation for a hot date. He's going fishing!

Cecil Hirvi: Sounds like one slap-happy Pappy!

Iggy: He's always happy :)

Beeble Baxter: Yeah, but beware of his jug! That third sip is a dooozy!

Iggy: Cecil had some. . .drunken Borg.

Cecil Hirvi: Good stuff... <cough>. I think it melted some of my circuitry.

Iggy: BTW, as SL continues to grow, what are your film-making plans?

Cecil Hirvi: Well Iggy...I've actually started to make a serious film in here.

Iggy: I note that you have a regular feature, "Peeps and Places."

Cecil Hirvi: ...I have a plot and will make a short 20 minute film...

Iggy: Cool. . .any hints about that film?

Cecil Hirvi: It's futuristic and deals with the concepts of religion and blurring the lines between RL and SL.

Beeble Baxter: Iggy, maybe we could have some screenings of their films on our island sometime?

Cecil Hirvi: Sure...feel free.

Iggy: Beeble, great idea!

Cecil Hirvi: Iggy...the reason I don't put my vidoes in SL...is that it all looks crappy, and SL doesn't handle video too well. It makes more sense to use Youtube because they know how to deal with video,plus the work is more accessible that way.

Iggy: Cecil, I like that idea for a film. Vivian, are you our star?

Iggy: I've noticed the poor quality of in-world vids. Do you think that there are other major shortcomings to SL? Aside from lag and crashes. . .

Cecil Hirvi: Well...I understand that all technology evolves over time....and I think SL will focus more on making things look better graphically, but no MAJOR gripes about it...other than too many rules!

Cecil Hirvi: I always want to break the rules!

Iggy: That is Pappy's one rule, too.

Vivian Jackalope: Yes, Cecil, you are the best in breaking the rules ;-)

Iggy: Do you really get banned from sims?

Cecil Hirvi: Thank you, Ms. Vivian.

Cecil Hirvi: I am not happy unless I get banned at least once a week. Mostly its because I push things to the limit.

Iggy: Care to drop names of sims? And anything that usually gets you banned? If it's PG-13 or worse, I can't include it :)

Vivian Jackalope: Well, I'm to afraid to do something so naughty to get banned.

Cecil Hirvi: Venice Island recently banned me because I accidentally threw a few handgrenades.

Iggy: Now that sounds like Pappy. He's threatened to shoot up the dollar store.

Beeble Baxter: Accidentally? that must be quite a twitch you have!

Iggy: I've always wanted to grief a griefer :)

Beeble Baxter: I'm hearing the genesis of a new SL simulation: the griefer grenade! Guaranteed to get rid of griefers & get you banned!! Only $19.99 today only!!!

Iggy: Seriously, though. . .How do you primary avs get perceived by folks?

Cecil Hirvi: And get this? I went the opposite with my avi...tried to make him not look pretty...

Vivian Jackalope: well, I can't hide..... my avatar gets a lot attention.

Cecil Hirvi: ...I discovered that he has become what I would want to look like in RL.

Vivian Jackalope: Always wondering why.

Iggy: Yep. Good-looking ladies get that sort of attention. How do you deal with it?

Cecil Hirvi: Gosh, It is great to be a woman in SL!

Vivian Jackalope: depends on how the guys talk. Mostly I ignore the annyoing ones.

Iggy: Vivian, did the film get you lots of friends requests. . .?

Cecil Hirvi: In my friends list...I have nearly 99 percent women and I give them things all the time...

Vivian Jackalope: Well, one time I didn't [ignore an annoying male] and I'm glad.... right Cecil?

Cecil Hirvi: Yes, Ms. Vivian.

Iggy: I wonder how many RL men try that? I've heard that 11% of SL ladies are actually RL males.

Cecil Hirvi: Yeah, you can usually tell though...I have a test.

Iggy: Beeb & I took very different approaches to our avs.

Iggy: This is essentially the RL me w/ a bit less hair.

Cecil Hirvi: Nice.

Beeble Baxter: Cecil, do you mean an avatar gender test? what is it?

[Cecil later explained to me this procedure: "Well, it's really just putting a series of off-the-wall questions to a female avatar. I normally feel like their chat answers reveal clues to their gender. Of course, I could be wrong on any number of occasions and just hope I'm not! Typically, If I ask a female stranger, "What's up, baby?", and they get a little offended and maybe a little "feminist" on me, then they most likely ARE female."]

Iggy: Beeb's RL self looks just like him, too.

Everyone laughs.

Cecil Hirvi: This face is actually my face in RL. . .I had to tweak the program to get it.

Vivian Jackalope: Well, I tried to come close to my RL lookalike... but, damn, my avatar looks so much better.

Beeble Baxter: Well, my eyes aren't green, but I can be a bit doggy...though this avatar is a raccoon!

Cecil Hirvi: lol!

Beeble Baxter: My idea was to have an avatar that emphasized biology and embodiment, and since dogs sniff and lick places that we can barely talk about, I thought a dog would be appropriate.

Iggy: One or two more Qs from me. . .

Iggy: What could make SL fail?

Vivian Jackalope: Tough q/

Cecil Hirvi: hmm..

Beeble Baxter: Energy crisis?

Cecil Hirvi: I think if the places goes to the kids...it will fail.

Iggy: I fear that, too.

Cecil Hirvi: Not enough online experiences for mature adults.

Iggy: We'll have power from coal. . .an energy crisis that makes us stay put will make MORE SLers.

Vivian Jackalope: Well they should make a kiddy SL.

Iggy: Do you think that teen SL and age-verification can address these problems?

Cecil Hirvi: I hope it does...but kids should be out playing!

Iggy: What's the most special thing about SL for both of you?

Cecil Hirvi: Using their youth to explore their physicality!

Iggy: I agree. Outside is good.

Vivian Jackalope: But it is always hard to know, who is exaclty at the keyboard, how would you control this?

Iggy: Vivian, that's a good point. What bothers you about who might be on the other side of the keyboard?

Iggy: it's one reason I link the RL me and Iggy so closely. As a writer I felt that I had to do so.

Beeble Baxter: Amen to exploring physicality!

Iggy: I spent the weekend on a tractor at a farm. No kidding.

Cecil Hirvi: We should hang out some time Beebe.

Beeble Baxter: Wouldn't the introduction of voice prevent imposters & increase security?

Vivian Jackalope: no, there are always kids, who are tech freaks and, I'm sure, they would find a way to make their voice sound more adult.

Cecil Hirvi: The special thing about SL for me...is meeting other like minded people from around the world...

Cecil Hirvi: like Vivian.

Cecil Hirvi: Can I tell u the story of how we met?

Beeble Baxter: Could SL evolve into a tool that helps us transcend traditioal nationalist competition & move towards something more evolved?

Cecil Hirvi: YES!

Iggy: Good Q.

Iggy: I want to see rural Turks using SL (I travel there a bit).

Vivian Jackalope: Well, as long as the people are not faking their behaviour it could.

Iggy: Vivian, your point interests me b/c I found a SLer who was obviously "crying for help" and I didn't know whether to believe it or not.

Cecil Hirvi: I think we are evolving...through the incorporation of technology.

Iggy: I think we are evolving too.

Cecil Hirvi: To enhance the mind.

Iggy: More like the Borg, perhaps?

Cecil Hirvi: Precisely why the Borg appeals to me but in a more poetic way.

Vivian Jackalope: And why I stick with a stupid strawberry blonde.

Cecil Hirvi: Yes, Ms. Vivian.

Vivian Jackalope: Well, not really, but people trust a blonde, don't ask me why.

Iggy: hey, I married a blonde! I trust them!

Vivian Jackalope: Hehehehe. . .good.

Beeble Baxter: I hope we are evolving in our use of technology - I like Engelbart's idea of tech as an augmentation of our bodies rather than a replacement.

Iggy: Cecil, you'd like Donna Haraway's "A Manifesto for Cyborgs." I think it's OL nowadays.

Iggy: She's a Biologist who explored OL life from an evolutionary point of view.

Cecil Hirvi: Becaue of SL, it isn't hard to imagine life a thouand years from now...where we have created worlds so real yet unreal.

Cecil Hirvi: ..and the avatars don't know they are being controlled.

Cecil Hirvi: Maybe that is what we are in RL?

Beeble Baxter: Cecil, can you friend me so we can chat later?

Iggy: Do you think that SL will one day have, say, 200K concurrence?

Vivian Jackalope: I just say The Matrix.

Beeble Baxter: Thanks!

Iggy: Vivian, good point b/c Phil Rosedale was quoted [ in a Rolling Stone feature on SL] as saying that he wanted to create a better version of The Matrix.

Iggy: I'm ready to be assimilated!

Beeble Baxter: Wow, maybe your idea of a future SL could make a good movie!

Cecil Hirvi: That is the basis of my new film.

Beeble Baxter: Who did the BORG voice? [heard in Cecil's films]

Iggy: Pappy did it :)

Instant Message from Pappy Enoch, who has been eaves-dropping: be dogged if'n are sum kinder mersheen-feller wif boiler-parts a-bolted tu his haid. I, fer wun, hain't a-gonna bee ass-himherlatimified.

Iggy: I'm going to have to run soon. Beeb, can you give them a tour of the island?

Vivian Jackalope: One day we all will be so confused that we don't know anymore, which is made a rl or a sl story

Iggy: Cecil, I'll send you a copy when it's done for sure.

Cecil Hirvi: Thanks!

Beeble Baxter: Reality has always been more slippery than we'ere willing to admit. I apologize, but I'll have to leave now. Thanks for inviting me Iggy and it was good to meet you Viv & Cecil. I'll be sure to get back in touch.

Iggy: I'm going to log off in a sec. Thank you all SO much. Stay in touch. I'll run the profile of you two tomorrow and the entire interview in a few days.

Cecil Hirvi: A pleasure...maybe we will get together Beebe for a little chat.

Iggy: Bye for now.

A follow-up from Vivian, to my Q "I'd asked about why the Goth subculture flourishes so well in SL. Any thoughts about how SL encourages otherwise marginal RL subcultures?"

That is the god thing, you can be whatever you want to be in this virtual world. But, SL gives the tools and we make something about it.

A follow-up from Vivian, to my Q "What is the most fun you have had in Second Life?":

For me the most fun so far is/was, what I learned about film making and how easy it is to "meet" people from all over the world.
I really love to explore new sims and I´m very often deeply impressed how detailed the sims are built. I really enjoy that.

And this from Cecil:

The vanilla answer is that SL is fun when you can explore and discover a new place. There are astonishingly beautiful places in SL that are fun to just visit and enjoy. So much artistry invested by these builders and designers that exploring alone in SL can take up much of your time. Mostly, like everyone else, I went through a process of first being disoriented, then going through the anxiety of actually talking to someone, then venturing out exploring, then being shocked at the utter depravity, then being embolded to try out a few things that I ordinarily wouldn't do in RL and finding out that SL (like RL) is filled with innovative, creative people who feel somewhat stifled by RL or are painfully shy loners. Now I've found a great way to create my films and have a few friends who feel like me some times. Why can't I find that in RL?

Why, indeed, Cecil? It's one of the best questions about real life that I've ever encountered. Even for an extrovert like this writer, it's hard, bloody hard, to do so sometimes.

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