a beautiful day
we had two interviews today: one
in the morning with a former journalist for
red
star, russia's pre-eminent
military newspaper and, in the afternoon, an interview with a representative
from a helsinki human rights group.
The morning passed as it always
does, with Sam waking me up and me taking him out of the bedroom so as not to
wake Ingrid (and Monica). I think this morning that must have been about 6:00
a.m.. Then we watched TV, read stories in Russian, and Sam played with his toys
until Monica and Ingrid woke up about
7:30.
After that, Monica made Russian bliny from a mix (they were incredible) while I tidied up and organized my gear for our morning interview. We left a bit late and took a cab to the interview, making it just in time.
Security required us to leave our passports, then we made our way into a lovely atrium where we sat with our host for the interview. Our host was a former news correspondent for Krasnaya Zvezda (Red Star), Russia's main military newspaper. Beyond his expertise, contacts, and experience with the Russian military, he proved to be simply a very nice guy too.
As is our custom we began with Monica asking questions about who has the power to stop the war in Chechnya, and what other conditions might make a real settlement more or less likely. I introduced myself later, and the topic of my second book, and our host instantly confirmed a central thesis, which is that as a military strategy, barbarism (the deliberate or systematic targeting of non-combatants for a political purpose) is counterproductive.
One of Monica's early questions referred to something we'd heard in a previous interview about Russian business interest in Ukraine following its "Orange revolution." The argument was that Moscow is so corrupt and anti-business that the possibility of a legitimate popular government (non corrupt) in Ukraine led to a sharp spike in real estate speculation along Khreschatik, Kiev's city center. Yet our host today argued that such a move would be unwise, because Ukraine's current "reformers" would in the end act like all old Soviets, because they are constitutionally incapable of distinguishing, in practice, between state power and economic opportunity.
Our host next argued that the real problem in Chechnya is that there is no overarching political strategy, only a military strategy. He argued that step by step, Russia is following down a path analogous to that of the US in Vietnam; from the argument of the generals that "the politicians stole our victory," to the current policy of "Chechenization." There was some truth in the notion that politicians in Moscow placed limits on the use of force to subdue Chechnya in the first war (the most crippling limits were technical and operational, however, not political); but in the second war Putin told the general staff "use any force you need to get the job done."
Only then, after leveling Grozny and most other urban areas in Chechnya, did the Russians discover that even maximum use of force (including air bombardment and heavy artillery) was not sufficient to win and, worse, had resulted in a progressive radicalization of the resistance to Russian authority (or any governmental authority for that matter). Our host also mentioned the demoralizing effect on many in the Russian military of Russia's having awarded a Hero of Russia medal to Ramzan Kadyrov, thuggish son of the elder Kadyrov, assassinated last year by forces unknown. I asked whether the award was Kadyrov's idea and our host said no, this was Moscow's idea as a way to bind him to them (he cited long abuse of the medal in this fashion, going back to a similar award to Egypt's Nasser in the 1950s).
There were many other interesting points, and we left thinking and talking about them as we walked back to Tverskaya, bought groceries for lunch, and then walked back to the apartment. Sam was asleep but Ingrid was up, so we got lunch ready and then Monica woke Sam. Lunch was a mix of chicken Kiev, some kind of chicken sausage (which Mom and Monica loved), and cabbage stuffed with rice and vegetables. For desert Monica had bought the kids a treat in the form of chocolate covered wafers. These were a big hit with everyone, and especially Ingrid.
The weather was cool and sunny and for once showed little sign that this could change during the day. After lunch we decided to visit the Kremlin and perhaps the Armory before Monica and I returned to get ready for our 4:30 interview with the Helsinki Group (a human rights organization). We were delighted to see there was no line for tickets, until we reached the ticket office and found out why: the Kremlin is closed on Thursdays (or at least it was closed today). So we walked up to the Armory gate to see if it might be open separately from the Kremlin. No.
It was simply too beautiful a day to go home right away so we strolled along the Kremlin wall for a time. I bought three miniature collections of poems by Pushkin and Lermontov at a gift shop, and Monica bought the kids popsicles.
We eventually made our way over to Sam and Ingrid's favorite park fountain, before heading home (not before buying Russian-edition Spongebob Squarepants and Winnie-the-Pooh DVDs) to get ready for our next interview.
We made it downstairs on time and found the same cab driver who'd driven us to our interview the day before (600 rubles each way). He charged us 900 rubles for a round trip ride and we got in and made our way to the interview. This time, Monica had the idea to chat with the driver about his thoughts on Putin, and life in Russia in general. Our driver said he thought what Russia needs is not Putin, but Stalin. He lamented the changes in Russia in recent decades, citing the 70s and early 80s as the best times for Russia. It was in its way as interesting an interview as any we've had so far in our time here.
We arrived on time to our interview and made our way up a long flight of stairs to our host. The place reeked of cigarette smoke, and every floor landing had an ashtray filled with butts. Seems everyone in the building was a chain smoker. Our host greeted us barefoot (apologizing for it) then offered us tea. We sat in a cramped room while she answered our questions (in fluent English) while fielding occasional phone calls from any of her three phones.
The first thing that struck us was that unlike any of our other interviewees, she visited Chechnya regularly (about every two months). Her comments about life there were thus something we took more seriously. Monica mentioned to her that last night she'd had a conversation with a woman at the ballet about Chechnya, and the woman had cautioned Monica to remain objective, but then followed that advice by saying "of course, Chechen men love to fight." Our host responded that there was some truth to that, but not because Chechen males are existentially violent. Rather, it was because young men in Chechnya have only two options: to fight for the fighters in the hills, or to fight for Kadyrov's forces (Kadyrov being Russia's Chechen ally in the Caucasus). There's no other life: no education, no jobs (official unemployment is 75% but actual unemployment is over 90%).
After introducing the subject of my work, our host surprised us by noting that the first war (1992 to 1996) is known colloquially in Russia as "the noble war." This, it turns out, is less because it was fought with finesse and restraint concerning civilians and more because it seems noble in comparison with the deliberate and systematic barbarity of the second Chechen war (1999 to the present). Our host noted that the advent of Kadyrov-sky forces was expected to reduce the costs for Russia, because it would mean Chechens killing Chechens. But in reality it's been a disaster of an invention, because now when things go bad in Chechnya, there are three actors involved and two of them, Russian federal forces and Kadyrov-skies, tend to blame each other for setbacks. In other words, there's no accountability and thus no possibility of effective action. Moreover, she pointed out that if Kadyrov is successful and wipes out the insurgents and jihadis in the hills, Russia will still have to deal with him, only in that case he would be much more powerful and at the same time, he's really no better than the jihadis he's tasked with eliminating.
Very interesting stuff.
On our ride home our driver's first question was "what do we think about the Michael Jackson trial?" Most of the rest of the trip home was taken up with him interviewing us about what we did in Moscow, what we thought of Clinton and Bush, and so on.
We arrived home and did some maintenance shopping before buying dinner at a Chinese take out kiosk up the street from our apartment. When we got home we sat down to dinner and although the food wasn't great, it wasn't bad either. Internet and cable both went out sometime during dinner, so I don't know when I'll be able to post this. Hopefully the utilities-that-be will have this worked out by tomorrow morning.
Monica got the kids ready for bed while I did dishes, and afterward I started work (as usual) on today's photos and then the blog. Strangely, Sam didn't go to sleep until about ten minutes ago (10:00 p.m.), which is very late for him. Ingrid is asleep next to Monica on our bed (I'm dreading having to move her later). I'm going to bed now.
Good night from white nights land...
After that, Monica made Russian bliny from a mix (they were incredible) while I tidied up and organized my gear for our morning interview. We left a bit late and took a cab to the interview, making it just in time.
Security required us to leave our passports, then we made our way into a lovely atrium where we sat with our host for the interview. Our host was a former news correspondent for Krasnaya Zvezda (Red Star), Russia's main military newspaper. Beyond his expertise, contacts, and experience with the Russian military, he proved to be simply a very nice guy too.
As is our custom we began with Monica asking questions about who has the power to stop the war in Chechnya, and what other conditions might make a real settlement more or less likely. I introduced myself later, and the topic of my second book, and our host instantly confirmed a central thesis, which is that as a military strategy, barbarism (the deliberate or systematic targeting of non-combatants for a political purpose) is counterproductive.
One of Monica's early questions referred to something we'd heard in a previous interview about Russian business interest in Ukraine following its "Orange revolution." The argument was that Moscow is so corrupt and anti-business that the possibility of a legitimate popular government (non corrupt) in Ukraine led to a sharp spike in real estate speculation along Khreschatik, Kiev's city center. Yet our host today argued that such a move would be unwise, because Ukraine's current "reformers" would in the end act like all old Soviets, because they are constitutionally incapable of distinguishing, in practice, between state power and economic opportunity.
Our host next argued that the real problem in Chechnya is that there is no overarching political strategy, only a military strategy. He argued that step by step, Russia is following down a path analogous to that of the US in Vietnam; from the argument of the generals that "the politicians stole our victory," to the current policy of "Chechenization." There was some truth in the notion that politicians in Moscow placed limits on the use of force to subdue Chechnya in the first war (the most crippling limits were technical and operational, however, not political); but in the second war Putin told the general staff "use any force you need to get the job done."
Only then, after leveling Grozny and most other urban areas in Chechnya, did the Russians discover that even maximum use of force (including air bombardment and heavy artillery) was not sufficient to win and, worse, had resulted in a progressive radicalization of the resistance to Russian authority (or any governmental authority for that matter). Our host also mentioned the demoralizing effect on many in the Russian military of Russia's having awarded a Hero of Russia medal to Ramzan Kadyrov, thuggish son of the elder Kadyrov, assassinated last year by forces unknown. I asked whether the award was Kadyrov's idea and our host said no, this was Moscow's idea as a way to bind him to them (he cited long abuse of the medal in this fashion, going back to a similar award to Egypt's Nasser in the 1950s).
There were many other interesting points, and we left thinking and talking about them as we walked back to Tverskaya, bought groceries for lunch, and then walked back to the apartment. Sam was asleep but Ingrid was up, so we got lunch ready and then Monica woke Sam. Lunch was a mix of chicken Kiev, some kind of chicken sausage (which Mom and Monica loved), and cabbage stuffed with rice and vegetables. For desert Monica had bought the kids a treat in the form of chocolate covered wafers. These were a big hit with everyone, and especially Ingrid.
The weather was cool and sunny and for once showed little sign that this could change during the day. After lunch we decided to visit the Kremlin and perhaps the Armory before Monica and I returned to get ready for our 4:30 interview with the Helsinki Group (a human rights organization). We were delighted to see there was no line for tickets, until we reached the ticket office and found out why: the Kremlin is closed on Thursdays (or at least it was closed today). So we walked up to the Armory gate to see if it might be open separately from the Kremlin. No.
It was simply too beautiful a day to go home right away so we strolled along the Kremlin wall for a time. I bought three miniature collections of poems by Pushkin and Lermontov at a gift shop, and Monica bought the kids popsicles.
We eventually made our way over to Sam and Ingrid's favorite park fountain, before heading home (not before buying Russian-edition Spongebob Squarepants and Winnie-the-Pooh DVDs) to get ready for our next interview.
We made it downstairs on time and found the same cab driver who'd driven us to our interview the day before (600 rubles each way). He charged us 900 rubles for a round trip ride and we got in and made our way to the interview. This time, Monica had the idea to chat with the driver about his thoughts on Putin, and life in Russia in general. Our driver said he thought what Russia needs is not Putin, but Stalin. He lamented the changes in Russia in recent decades, citing the 70s and early 80s as the best times for Russia. It was in its way as interesting an interview as any we've had so far in our time here.
We arrived on time to our interview and made our way up a long flight of stairs to our host. The place reeked of cigarette smoke, and every floor landing had an ashtray filled with butts. Seems everyone in the building was a chain smoker. Our host greeted us barefoot (apologizing for it) then offered us tea. We sat in a cramped room while she answered our questions (in fluent English) while fielding occasional phone calls from any of her three phones.
The first thing that struck us was that unlike any of our other interviewees, she visited Chechnya regularly (about every two months). Her comments about life there were thus something we took more seriously. Monica mentioned to her that last night she'd had a conversation with a woman at the ballet about Chechnya, and the woman had cautioned Monica to remain objective, but then followed that advice by saying "of course, Chechen men love to fight." Our host responded that there was some truth to that, but not because Chechen males are existentially violent. Rather, it was because young men in Chechnya have only two options: to fight for the fighters in the hills, or to fight for Kadyrov's forces (Kadyrov being Russia's Chechen ally in the Caucasus). There's no other life: no education, no jobs (official unemployment is 75% but actual unemployment is over 90%).
After introducing the subject of my work, our host surprised us by noting that the first war (1992 to 1996) is known colloquially in Russia as "the noble war." This, it turns out, is less because it was fought with finesse and restraint concerning civilians and more because it seems noble in comparison with the deliberate and systematic barbarity of the second Chechen war (1999 to the present). Our host noted that the advent of Kadyrov-sky forces was expected to reduce the costs for Russia, because it would mean Chechens killing Chechens. But in reality it's been a disaster of an invention, because now when things go bad in Chechnya, there are three actors involved and two of them, Russian federal forces and Kadyrov-skies, tend to blame each other for setbacks. In other words, there's no accountability and thus no possibility of effective action. Moreover, she pointed out that if Kadyrov is successful and wipes out the insurgents and jihadis in the hills, Russia will still have to deal with him, only in that case he would be much more powerful and at the same time, he's really no better than the jihadis he's tasked with eliminating.
Very interesting stuff.
On our ride home our driver's first question was "what do we think about the Michael Jackson trial?" Most of the rest of the trip home was taken up with him interviewing us about what we did in Moscow, what we thought of Clinton and Bush, and so on.
We arrived home and did some maintenance shopping before buying dinner at a Chinese take out kiosk up the street from our apartment. When we got home we sat down to dinner and although the food wasn't great, it wasn't bad either. Internet and cable both went out sometime during dinner, so I don't know when I'll be able to post this. Hopefully the utilities-that-be will have this worked out by tomorrow morning.
Monica got the kids ready for bed while I did dishes, and afterward I started work (as usual) on today's photos and then the blog. Strangely, Sam didn't go to sleep until about ten minutes ago (10:00 p.m.), which is very late for him. Ingrid is asleep next to Monica on our bed (I'm dreading having to move her later). I'm going to bed now.
Good night from white nights land...
Posted: Thu - June 16, 2005 at 10:16 PM
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Published On: Jun 16, 2005 10:18 PM
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Published On: Jun 16, 2005 10:18 PM