Gedanken 1: Scenario 2; Question for Troll God |
Calenril_i
Subject: Gedanken: Question for the Troll God
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 11:52:15 PDTPaddy's saving roll at the beginning of this second battle was equivalent to a level 3 saving roll. According to the missile chart in section 2.33, the worms should be classified as either 'large' or 'small'. A point-blank attack would make them either a 2nd or 3rd level SR to hit. Since Paddy chose to attack the more distant creatures, it means either a 4th or 6th level roll. By the rules listed, a target less than the height of an adult and more than 10 yards away would be a 6th level SR. This gives ranged weapons a very high failure rate. Why is it so hard to hit something? Do you still recommend using this chart today?
Subject: Gedanken
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 21:32:26 PDT[Text contindued from here.]
>Paddy's saving roll at the beginning of this second battle was equivalent to a level 3 saving roll. According to the missile chart in section 2.33, the worms should be classified as either 'large' or 'small'. [...] Why is it so hard to hit something? Do you still recommend using this chart today?
I've always had some issues with it.
I can see making hits difficult to attain, with the way they do damage- you definitely want to keep them in check.
Dex is hard to raise, making it unlikely youíll have great archers out there for starters.
But for those who do, they double their DEX adds. As I see it, they already have enough of an advantage, being able to do missile damage at a safe range- no need to give them excess adds as well. If you really want to double adds for Dex, maybe you should lessen or negate the str adds.
Mistwalker_
Subject: Re: Gedanken
Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 00:08:33 PDT<<Have a pie, eat a pie.>>
As long as it's Key Lime or Peach Cheesecake.
<<Iíve always had some issues with it.
I can see making hits difficult to attain, with the way they do damage- you definitely want to keep them in check.
Dex is hard to raise, making it unlikely youíll have great archers out there for starters.
But for those who do, they double their DEX adds. As I see it, they already have enough of an advantage, being able to do missile damage at a safe range- no need to give them excess adds as well. If you really want to double adds for Dex, maybe you should lessen or negate the str adds. >>On the other hand, some races do get hefty DEX bennies at the start of the game. Maybe that's why there's not many elves doing a Conan impersonation in stead of William Tell?
KenStAndre
Subject: Re: Gedanken: Question for the Troll God
Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 17:50:06 PDTThere was a certain rough mathematical logic behind that chart, but in point of fact, it never worked particularly well. Now, I was an archer in college, and I know how hard it is to actually hit anything with a bow and arrow. I also did shuriken throwing, fencing, spear-throwing and other such medieval things when I was a lot younger.
Still, that chart makes things impossibly difficult for archers, and that whole method of computing whether ranged weapons hit or miss has to go away for the 6th edition. I'm leaning towards treating all ranged attacks as skills, and simply calling for a S.R. on the appropriate skill when trying to hit anything. What this should do is make it a lot easier to hit things that are relatively close at hand, and stay about the same for distant, moving objects.
—Ken
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Subject: Gedanken: pressing the pause button
Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 08:34:29 PDTThanks, Ken, for your input. In light of your comments and the problems I am discovering with ranged attacks, I am tempted to make a change in the missile chart. The change would be as follows:
Distance: Pointblank 1; Near 2; Far 3; Extreme 4
Size: Huge -1; Large x1; Small x2; Very Small x3; Tiny x4.However, changing the rules could invalidate our findings with the Gedanken. On the other hand, sticking with the rules reduces the playability of the game somewhat—Paddy missing all the time may be more realistic, but it's simply frustrating.
Now that we are focusing on ranged combat, I see that we have found something that *potentially* tips the balance away from wizards. Non-wizards get ranged weapons with more than two dice, and missile attacks work like the TTYF. Furthermore, you can fire missiles as long as you have ammunition and time to reload, whereas TTYF power runs low quickly. When TTYFs start to come cheap at high levels, GMs usually insert defences against low-level TTYFs to make it harder on the wizards.
Question for investigation: How does the frequency of missile attacks compare to the 100% accuracy of TTYFs. Do they balance, or is one a notable advantage?
We need to get these characters to a higher level in order to test these things. After this combat, I will play just one or two more at this level and then we will move up. In the meanwhile, Paddy will soon find a helpful little treasure.
Subject: Re: Gedanken: pressing the pause button
Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 14:15:16 PDT[Previous text edited]
[OOC] Ah, but you are comparing apples and oranges. The TTYF spell is unique for causing "shock" damage. Not only does it do direct damage to an opponent, but it also adds to the group's combat total for defensive purposes. The idea is seeing an ally magically go "poof" is demoralizing, and magically going "poof" is very distracting for the targetted individual.
So TTYF can be used at a range and in hand to hand combat without worrying about giving up a defense. Using a missile weapon at point blank range better result in the target's death. Otherwise, the missile user has just his/her armor to defend against the enemy's combat total.
So by example if Ryone had cast TTYF (which he didn't) a worm would take 16 damage automatically and the worms would have to generate a combat total higher than 16 + 6 (leather armor) or 22 points to do any damage to Ryone.
While Paddy could do a maximum of 12 + 6 (Missile Adds) or 18 points of damage, but if that didn't kill the worm it would only need a combat total of, well, anything to harm the leprechaun (14 point from instant death oouch!).
Calenril_i
Subject: Re: Gedanken: pressing the pause button
Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 14:26:17 PDT<<The TTYF spell is unique for causing "shock" damage.>>
That is *such* a good point, and I stand corrected (partially). Missile damage comes off first just like a TTYF, but unless the GM decides, it has no shock value. But now that you remind me, it takes a certain intelligence to be affected by shock value. I wonder if these worms would care about a TTYF?
Ken_St_Andre
Subject: Weapon Skills and Others
Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 07:44:40 PDTThis is my thinking on the discussion:
First, Split, you're worried about all sorts of hypothetical situations where characters could believably be better than the rules that I've set up. Yes, they could be, however . . .
We're talking about creating beginning characters at the beginning of a game. Beginning characters, pretty much by definition, are not very accomplished fighters, mages, or anything else. If natuarally blessed, they may have all their attributes in excess of 12 or something, but the fun and challenge of beginning characters is role-playing through their weaknesses—growing the character through struggle and practice and adventure until it becomes one you can be proud of.
If the G.M. wants to create a higher level character, say a tenth level warrior with skills in half a dozen weapons, ride, speak 6 languages, know the lore of dungeon delving, etc., of course the G.M. can do so. (Remember the basic rule of all role-playing games—the G.M. is God. Nothing makes me madder in play than having a player start trying to twist the "rules" of the game against the G.M. They are not really rules in T & T. They are suggestions. House rules take precedence.) If you want to start out with a really accomplished character, work it out with your G.M., and have fun, but the basic 6th edition rules are designed to create first level beginning characters, and beginning characers are, by definition, weak. Some are weaker than others, but they are all weak. That is what makes them fun.
Second: the warriors vs. wizards controversy.
Beginning wizards are weaker than beginning warriors and harder to keep alive. Advanced wizards are stronger than advanced warriors and easier to keep alive. In a world where magic is ubiquitous, whoever controlls the most magic will be the strongest. There is nothing wrong with that model. Let's use Middle Earth for an example. Who controls the most magic? Sauron. And how was he defeated? By destroying the receptacle for most of his power. How about the world of Conan? Greatest wizard was Thoth-Amon. How did the ultimate warrior, Conan, beat him? With the help of gods and other wizards.Calenril has pointed out that the use of missiles effectively equals the use of spells in combat, and that's true. A well-aimed crossbow bolt will do much more damage than a first or second level TTYF. And the missile fighter can keep cranking them out every combat turn, while the wizard rapidly tires.
To make things a little tougher for wizards the mythical 6th edition rules will include a save against magic saving roll. Whenever a wizard tries to cast a spell directly on someone, the target person gets to roll a saving roll on their Mystic (kremm) attribute. Saving roll is based on the level of the spell being cast—L1SR on kremm to resist a L1 TTYF. L3SR to resist a Blasting Power. Thus if Neth McCrom has a KRM rating of 10, and Thoth Kopfy throws a L1 TTYF at him, Neth can avoid the damage of Thoth's 18 point IQ by simply rolling a 10 on 2D6. Alas, more saving rolls will be missed than made, but that's okay—we want magic to work most of the time.
3. Magic considered as a form of skill. I've considered this a lot, and finally decided that it doesn't really qualify under the working rules. Yes, there can be skillful use of magic, but what we're talking about is an ability like breathing or seeing or smelling. We don't want the magic-users making saving rolls to see if their magic works or not, and then having the targets make another saving roll to see if they can resist it. Slows the game down. Magic works. Sometimes it can be resisted, redirected, repelled, or overcome, but unless something is wrong with the wizard, magic works.
Does that make sense to everyone? It makes sense to me.
—Ken
Subject: Re: Gedanken: pressing the pause button
Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 09:39:57 PDT[First part of post moved here.]
[[OOC]] Ken, I can appreciate the use of a "Mystic"-type stat for *defense* against magic. That's one use that IMHO cannot be suitably covered by a SR on one of the 5e stats. Plus, it allows for players that are unlucky and magic resistant, or vice versa. And it gives the GM an excuse to refuse the auto-kill of his/her pet monster due to a high-level TTYF.
P.S.: What's the story behind the word "Kremm"?
On another note, I can't agree more with your words:
<<[[Ken]] ...the fun and challenge of beginning characters is role-playing through their weaknesses—growing the character through struggle and practice and adventure until it becomes one you can be proud of.>>
You've just summed up my entire RPG philosophy. Even Jax started out as a naiive stripling.
Eickeric
Subject: Gedanken: Scen. 2, @node 3, round 2
Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 08:49:38 PDT>I am tempted to make a change in the missile chart. The change would be as follows: Ö However, changing the rules could invalidate our findings with the Gedanken. On the other hand, sticking with the rules reduces the playability of the game somewhat—Paddy missing all the time may be more realistic, but it's simply frustrating.
Iíd keep the rules as they are. As pointed out, this is an experiment to test the rules as they ARE. Itís also completely non-lethal, so itís not like weíll have to start over from scratch when killed. Keep `em as they are, and do a later Gedanken with the changed rules.
>Now that we are focusing on ranged combat, I see that we have found something that *potentially* tips the balance away from wizards.
No it doesnít, not with the current hit table,, and as pointed out by another- the fact that TTYF is included in the normal combat totals, but missile combat leaves you defenseless.
>Question for investigation: How does the frequency of missile attacks compare to the 100% accuracy of TTYFs. Do they balance, or is one a notable advantage?
Advantage is strongly with the TTYF for the majority of users.
>We need to get these characters to a higher level in order to test these things.
Itíll be a sacrifice on my part, but Iím willing to allow you to make Nitro 17th level.
>In the meanwhile, Paddy will soon find a helpful little treasure
Did I mention Nitro will be switching to missile combat as well?
>Ah, but you are comparing apples and oranges. The TTYF spell is unique for causing "shock" damage.
Incorrect. Blasting Power and Freeze Pleeze also have shock value attributed to them. (Section 2.32)
However, they only do damage if you win the combat round..
> So TTYF can be used at a range and in hand to hand combat without worrying about giving up a defense.
Good point- missile combat after the first melee round is pretty much out of the question.
> But now that you remind me, it takes a certain intelligence to be affected by shock value. I wonder if these worms would care about a TTYF?
Iíd say so, because itís described as lowering the opponentís roll due to being `jarred, frightened, or merely painedí.
These things seem to have physical form here, so they can apparently be jarred.
Thereís not a lot of opponents who donít fall into one of the three categories above.