Gedanken 1: Comments on Character Creation |
Jaxdracon
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:14:32 PDT
Subject: Gedanken: Comments on PC Creation[[OOC]] On Weak Characters in T&T:
Whither Goest the Leprechaun Without His Wink?
Comments on how the 6e Mystic stat affected character creation and arming were solicited for the Gedanken, but this post covers the topic only tangentially. Rather, I comment herein on the broader issue of weak character creation in T&T as evidenced in particular by the creation of my Gedanken Leprechaun, Paddy O'Baddy.
The T&T (5e) manual states that Leprechauns have the innate ability to cast Wink Wing at a Str cost of only 5 (4 with staff ordinaire, which lowers a Wizard's spell cost by one). However, it is possible to create, as I found out with some consternation as the dice fell, a Leprechaun that is too weak to use his "innate" ability (e.g., 3 Str), or is too weak to remain conscious after using his "innate" ability (e.g., 4 Str with staff ordinaire). Only Leprechauns with Str less than 6 may suffer either form of this handicap.
The latter example is Paddy's case. In T&T (5e), he can only Wink away once with his 4 Str and staff ordinaire, but at the price of losing consciousness for having used all his strength.
The alternative rule set being compared in Gedanken (variously attributed to Thorn or Shipman) may solve this problem by shifting the burden to the Mystic stat, which in a nutshell replaces Str as the Wizard's power reservoir, to my best knowledge. But resolution of the problem ultimately depends on the smallest Leprechaun Mystic stat that is possible in this system (Leprechauns get a favorable Mystic stat race modifier, but I forget what this is), so the problem may remain if a Leprechaun can be created with Mystic stat lower than 6.
Anyway, there's a larger issue here: T&T character generation with innate ability handicap. Is this fair?
One could take the position that characters created for delving should be baseline equipped with viable innate abilities; indeed the T&T manual states as the third prerequisite for playing the game: "Arm and provision [your] characters so that they will have some kind of chance of getting down into the dungeon and back out alive."
One could also give the analogy that humans are designed to see, but yet there exist congenitally blind humans.
The brouhaha ensues:
.."But this is T&T, not GURPS! We threw realism out the window along with disadvantage points!"
.."Ok, so just take the Strength bonus at 2nd level."
.."What if I don't *make* 2nd level?"
.."Oh shut up and go change your armor; just roll another frakkin Leprechaun!"
.."But that's not playing by the rules!"
And folks, *rules* are what this Gedanken is all about. It would have been easy to just reroll the dice, but why should a simple, robust character generation system have to resort to virtual euthanasia?
Comments?
(However you argue it, Paddy is out there in combat, with his one dubious ace in the hole. We shall see how he fares as a magically challenged delver!)
Calenril_i
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:31:40 PDT
Subject: Re: Gedanken: Comments on PC CreationThank you for your interesting and well-reasoned comments. For the readers, I must also comment that I artificially limited starting gold supply to 120GP for each user. Jaxdracon had some bad luck in the wrong place. Without the 120GP limit, he might have rolled higher in the money area, thus providing some cash for some armor or a hand-to-hand weapon. He could also have not purchased a staff and focused on combat skills for the first level or two. The move to start with a staff was a gamble--if Paddy survives, then he has a jump-start on becoming the fine wizard that Leprechauns can be.
Mistwalker_
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:39:17 PDT
Subject: Re: Gedanken: Comments on PC CreationMy comments are as follows, for what they're worth.
No game guarantees any character's survival. It is, most often, up to the players luck and wits and the GM's mercy (or lack of it) that determines a character's chance of surviving a dangerous situation. High stats are nice, and increase the chance for survival a tad, but nothings guaranteed when you throw the dice.
If a character can't use an innate ability, or just gets bad rolls in general on character creation, he could simply show a little care in picking equipment. A pair of small, easy to use weapons can be nearly as effective as a decent sized one. A ranged weapon, such as the sling Paddy just used, can help increase the party's chances. And a little bit of tactics couldn't hurt.
And the whole point to joining a party is to have others around to help deal with a tight situation. It's not up to one person to win the fight, or to take all the lumps. So even with just a sling and a stick, a lowly (even for a Leprechaun) Leprechaun, Hobbit, Fairy, or just about anything else can become fairly competent and useful, with just a bit of luck, a bit of caution, and some good, reliable team mates.
And that's my $00.02.
Calenril_i
-To add to Mistwalker_'s $.02 -- The GM can and usually should balance a game according to the party's abilities. In this case, the affect of the rules on the strength of the party is irrelevant. Thus, it is the balance of the classification system (warriors vs. magic users) that is my main concern.
Talan_Fire
Subject: Re: Gedanken: Scenario 1
[edited...]
Now as to character creation. Not all characters are meant to be successful. Equipment may help, but it isnít a cure all. The best way to balance characters is to allow the player to roll 10 times (11 if using Mystic) and assign the values to their chosen attributes. This helps to manage characters with bad rolls like Paddy.
Since I rolled a fine wizard Ryone became a wizard. If I hadnít rolled a high IQ and DEX I wouldnít have bothered making him a wizard. If I had the chance to swap values around, I would have given that 16 to either his STR or MYC. That way, Ryone could cast several spells before needing a rest.
MYC only changes a wizardís fighting ability. A MYC wizard is more reliable in combat, but overall a weaker fighter. A STR wizard is a better fighter before he casts spells, but becomes next to useless after a spell casting frenzy.
I try to play most wizards as information junkies. Knowing one's enemy can be more helpful than fighting everything encountered. They sparingly use magic to give their side that extra edge.
Eickeric
Subject: Weak Guys
On Weak Characters in T&T: interesting talk.
Iíll interspace comments as usual.
>Jax: I comment herein on the broader issue of weak character creation in T&T as evidenced in particular by the creation of my Gedanken Leprechaun, Paddy O'Baddy.
Just to start off, this is the second person who has mentioned they have a weak Gedanken character due to initial stat rolls.
Iím not going to agree or dispute this issue- but I would point out that theyíve both overcome that problem quite well- by choosing to play a nonhuman, and instead use a race with decent ability bonuses.
Nitro rolled pretty well for his stats- better than both of them. By choosing to play a nonhuman though, they both have resulted in characters with equal or better abilities than his human ones.
While this has little to do with the 5th/6th edition comparison, it is a vivid example of the discussion and points I made about human vs nonhuman characters a while back. (ie- nonhumans pretty much have it all over humans as characters.)
>The T&T (5e) manual states that Leprechauns have the innate ability to cast Wink Wing at a Str cost of only 5 (4 with staff ordinaire, which lowers a Wizard's spell cost by one).
Yep. Definitely true. The description does specifically state itís a genetic ability to cast a spell, and a wizardís staff does specifically say it reduces the cost of a spell cast, so this is correct. However, I personally view this more as a natural ability, like the fairies flight, not as a spell, and do not allow leprechauns to lower the cost via staff, only by gaining levels. (Counting their natural wink-wing as a 1st level spell, not the regular versionís 4th.) Neither here nor there, I just thought Iíd mention it.
>However, it is possible to create, as I found out with some consternation as the dice fell, a Leprechaun that is too weak to use his "innate" ability (e.g., 3 Str), or is too weak to remain conscious after using his "innate" ability (e.g., 4 Str with staff ordinaire). Only Leprechauns with Str less than 6 may suffer either form of this handicap. The latter example is Paddy's case. In T&T (5e), he can only Wink away once with his 4 Str and staff ordinaire, but at the price of losing consciousness for having used all his strength.
Not just go unconscious- heíll die if str reaches 0 from spellcasting, according to section 2.21 of the 5th ed rules.
`If, however, spell cost is calculated exactly, and the magic-user realizes that casting the spell will drop his ST to exactly 0, the character will die but the spell will take effect.í
At least itíd be harder for the enemy you ran fronm to find and loot your bodyÖ
>The alternative rule set being compared in Gedanken (variously attributed to Thorn or Shipman)
Letís all start attributing it to eickeric until those two figure out whom to blame.
>may solve this problem by shifting the burden to the Mystic stat, which in a nutshell replaces Str as the Wizard's power reservoir, to my best knowledge.
Yes. It sucks, hence the word blame instead of credit.
>But resolution of the problem ultimately depends on the smallest Leprechaun Mystic stat that is possible in this system (Leprechauns get a favorable Mystic stat race modifier, but I forget what this is),
Itís x2 in 6th edition.
>so the problem may remain if a Leprechaun can be created with Mystic stat lower than 6.
Nope, not by those rules.
Eickeric
Subject: Weak Guys 2
>Anyway, there's a larger issue here: T&T character generation with innate ability handicap. Is this fair?
Yes, with some caveats.
I believe the system of rolling is fair- everyone has exactly the same chance to roll well, or to roll poorly.
This is random chance, and adds the element of the unknown in the character creation process.
Since everyone is affected by this equally, itís fair.Contrast this to the race bonuses and class abilities.
There is a clear advantage to being some races over another races. (Nitro, Wendy, and Paddy clearly illustrate this example.)
Ditto with the wizard class- itís clearly superior to the warrior class.
However, unlike the random fate rolls for stats, this is a deliberate choice.
Moreover, this leads into the field of special abilities unique to those classes and races, while everybody uses the same stats, just at different numbers.Yes, I could have chosen to be an elven wizard, and received quite a power boost- but I donít think this is the point, or the reason to play.
(The reason is, of course, to be ridiculous- but Iím starting to digress.)Unequal stats donít bother me, luck is an important part of the game.
Unequal races and classes bother me, especially when they lead to a homogenous group of clones. Fortunately, this hasnít been the case in the BFT.
And while I do dislike it, well, life is unfair as well, so I live with it. ;)
.."Ok, so just take the Strength bonus at 2nd level."
.."What if I don't *make* 2nd level?"You make a new character, and try again. Perhaps the new one wonít need to make it to 2nd level in order to use the trait.
Nobody, regardless of whether they roll all 3ís or all 18ís in guaranteed to live.
(Heck, I had a player with a dragon character in my campaign get himself killed in his first adventure- and thatís something you canít get much more powerful than in standard T&T rules.)
.."Oh shut up and go change your armor; just roll another frakkin Leprechaun!"
.."But that's not playing by the rules!"
---And folks, *rules* are what this Gedanken is all about. It would have been easy to just reroll the dice, but why should a simple, robust character generation system have to resort to virtual euthanasia? Comments?Yeah.
Rules might be what Gedanken is about, but not what RPGs are about.
RPGs are, at least nominally about fun.If you roll a character up with lousy stats, and this really bothers you, then crumple it up and roll another character up.
Itís a lot faster than starting play and declaring your character jumps off a cliff to his death.
Itís less disruptive than getting into a swordfight with the mage trying to hire you (say Cobalt) so that heíll kill you and you can roll up a new character.
I donít see how this is against the rules.
Iím sure not going to castigate you for ditching a character you hate before play.On the other hand, if you can live with the stats, play the character. Itís not the stats youíre going to remember and enjoy, itís what you and the others said and did in play thatíll be remembered. Itís the interaction, and the fun.
Gedanken, on the other hand, IS about rules, as you mentioned. The prime purpose is to compare two rule systems.
Terrific. Iíd say play the character as rolled- as you point out, itís bringing up points and questions you might not have considered before.
(But Iím still planning on having as much fun as possible.)
>Calenril: Thank you for your interesting and well-reasoned comments. For the readers, I must also comment that I artificially limited starting gold supply to 120GP for each user.
Actually, you said we had a 120gp account. (To which I was quite grateful, because I actually rolled 30gp before I noticed that.)
If you actually meant for us to roll and cap it out to 30gp, then I need to make some equipment changes.
Iíll jÀeickeric
Eickeric
Subject: Weak Guys 3
Got cut off.
Where was I... oh yes.>If you actually meant for us to roll and cap it out to 30gp, then I need to make some equipment changes.
Iíll just buy a buckler and a Greek helm. Hopefully someone can lend me a dagger or something.
>Jaxdracon had some bad luck in the wrong place. Without the 120GP limit, he might have rolled higher in the money area, thus providing some cash for some armor or a hand-to-hand weapon. He could also have not purchased a staff and focused on combat skills for the first level or two. The move to start with a staff was a gamble--if Paddy survives, then he has a jump-start on becoming the fine wizard that Leprechauns can be
Odds say heíd have rolled lower than 120gp.
I personally feel it was a poor tactical move for Jax to buy the staff as starting equipment. Other than Wink-Wing, he has no starting spells. As a leprechaun, he has no ready source for them, other than PCs either. Unless they sell spells to him at a discount (which is actually disapproved, for the logical reason whoever sells him a spell needs to purchase spells of their own) the cost of a spell is far in excess of a staff.
(100gp for a staff, 500gp for a 2nd level spell, say 250-500 for a first level one.)In addition, he has neither the str (for 5th ed), or the mystic (for 6th edition) to be a very competent mage at present. With this in mind, and since he hasnít any castable spells anyway- buying a staff seems like folly to me. I believe heíd have been much better off buying armor (perhaps leather and a buckler), which would give him a far greater chance to live long enough to gain those levels and increase the str or mystic stats, and to live long enough to succeed in finding enough treasure to buy the spells to make his staff useful. The armor would have a more immediate, and directly useful function for him. (Recall again, he has no problem buying a staff later- anyone can buy one. There was no need to buy one now.)
Other than armor, he might have considered items the party could find useful, perhaps rope, a compass, torches, etc.
The staff does none of us, including him, and good right now.
(Perhaps he should consider lending it to Ryone for the nonce.)
>Mistwalker: My comments are as follows, for what they're worth.
Theyíre worth 2 cents.
>No game guarantees any character's survival.
Agreed.
>It is, most often, up to the players luck and wits and the GM's mercy (or lack of it) that determines a character's chance of surviving a dangerous situation. High stats are nice, and increase the chance for survival a tad, but nothings guaranteed when you throw the dice.
Agreement again.
Eickeric
Subject: Weak Guys 4
>If a character can't use an innate ability, or just gets bad rolls in general on character creation, he could simply show a little care in picking equipment. A pair of small, easy to use weapons can be nearly as effective as a decent sized one.
Or more effective, as some of the warrior/wizard arguments a while back showed.
>A ranged weapon, such as the sling Paddy just used, can help increase the party's chances.
As direct damage, they can often be the significant reason for victory in the melee.
>And the whole point to joining a party is to have others around to help deal with a tight situation. It's not up to one person to win the fight, or to take all the lumps. So even with just a sling and a stick, a lowly (even for a Leprechaun) Leprechaun, Hobbit, Fairy, or just about anything else can become fairly competent and useful, with just a bit of luck, a bit of caution, and some good, reliable team mates.
DEFINITE agreement on that call.
Much as I hate not having anything to argue about with Mistwalker, Iíll echo everything said, especially this last bit.
At the absolute bare minimum, having Paddy punch someone in the knee gives our side about another 6 points of total damage we didnít have before. At other ends, Paddy needs only a 5 to make either a 1st level IQ, Luck, or Dex save. Who knows where or when that would be useful? And this doesnít even bring up whatever contributions the player themselves brings to the table, or keybosrd.
>And that's my $00.02.
Told ya so.
>Talan_fire: Not all characters are meant to be successful. Equipment may help, but it isnít a cure all. The best way to balance characters is to allow the player to roll 10 times (11 if using Mystic) and assign the values to their chosen attributes. This helps to manage characters with bad rolls like Paddy.
I disagree.
Extra rolls arenít necessary to ensure character success, especially in a game where stats are as fluid as in T&T.
More characters tend to die of terminal stupidity or bad luck, than of bad stats.
>I try to play most wizards as information junkies. Knowing one's enemy can be more helpful than fighting everything encountered. They sparingly use magic to give their side that extra edge
Agreed.
>Calenril: -To add to Mistwalker_'s $.02 -- The GM can and usually should balance a game according to the party's abilities.
Unless of course, youíre planning either a short adventure or a valuable object lesson, like `you canít win every fight every timeí. ;P
Calenril_i
Subject: Re: Weak Guys 2
<<Actually, you said we had a 120gp account.>>
Very astute. Yes, there was a 120gp limit--no more than 120gp. Also, no less than 120gp. Unless you wanted to give it to charity, that is.
Jaxdracon
Subject: Re: Weak Guys
<< [[eickeric]] Not just go unconscious- heíll die if str reaches 0 from spellcasting, according to section 2.21 of the 5th ed rules.>>
Wow, thanks eickeric for your expert opinion and fact-delving.
I don't know where I got that bit about going unconscious at 0 STR due to spellcasting. If I had known that, Paddy would indeed NOT have spent 100gp on his stinkin' staff, and WOULD have bought armor. Oh well. At the rate he's rolling, he ain't gonna live long to regret it.
Another thing: the Gedanken rules also influenced character creation in a subtle way: character kindred and class had to be set BEFORE dice were rolled:
1) Decide first what character class and kindred you want.
So I was stuck with the stats for my Leprechaun (Wizard) and could not choose a more favorable race/class.
Eickeric
Subject: Re: Weak Guys
<< [[eickeric]] Not just go unconscious- heíll die if str reaches 0 from spellcasting, according to section 2.21 of the 5th ed rules.>>
>Jax: Wow, thanks eickeric for your expert opinion and fact-delving.Better for you to know now than AFTER you cast the wink-wing, I guessÖ
>I don't know where I got that bit about going unconscious at 0 STR due to spellcasting.
Probably a combination of the `unconsciousness due to massive str lossí rule, and that many RPGs have characters at 0 fall unconscious, and only die when they reach the negatives. No harm, no foul.
>If I had known that, Paddy would indeed NOT have spent 100gp on his stinkin' staff, and WOULD have bought armor. Oh well. At the rate he's rolling, he ain't gonna live long to regret it.
Seeing as weíve been told that death isnít permanent here, and that youíre currently protected from melee combat, Iíd say youíll be fine.
>Another thing: the Gedanken rules also influenced character creation in a subtle way: character kindred and class had to be set BEFORE dice were rolled: 1) Decide first what character class and kindred you want. So I was stuck with the stats for my Leprechaun (Wizard) and could not choose a more favorable race/class.
Excellent point. I went into it knowing I was going to play a simple human warrior, so as long as I had enough str to wear a modicum of armor, what I rolled for stats didnít really matter to me.
You as a wizard had a different problem- suppose you hadnít rolled sufficient IQ or Dex to cast any spells? That would have been a serious handicap. (I suspect you would have been allowed to reroll, or choose a new race/class.) Interesting thought.
Mistwalker_
Subject: Re: Weak Guys
Actually, as I recall the GM did list the option to make another character if you didn't have the minimum requirements for your class, or the total didn't equal a certain number. I could be wrong though.
Talan_Fire
Subject: Re: Weak Guys 4
Whoops! You missed my point eickeric
>Talan_fire: Not all characters are meant to be successful. Equipment may help, but it isnít a cure all. The best way to balance characters is to allow the player to roll 10 times (11 if using Mystic) and assign the values to their chosen attributes. This helps to manage characters with bad rolls like Paddy.
>Eickeric< I disagree.
>Eickeric< Extra rolls arenít necessary to ensure
>Eickeric< character success, especially in a game
>Eickeric< where stats are as fluid as in T&T.I wasn't suggesting extra rolls just redistributing rolls. STR, DEX, IQ, LUK, CON, CH, SP, Height, Weight, and GP make for 10 3d6 rolls.
Using a new stat like Mystic makes for 11 rolls.
This is just a way to help offset a character's rolls. Some people like to play what they roll, and will be happy with making their character short and light weight in order to have better stats or beginning gold.
>Eickeric< More characters tend to die of
>Eickeric< terminal stupidity or bad luck, than
>Eickeric< of bad stats.I agree wholeheartedly.
I personally believe that like life the best RPGs do not create evenly balanced characters. Too often games that create balanced characters create cardboard cutout characters.
Calenril_i
Subject: Re: Weak Guys
<<You as a wizard had a different problem- suppose you hadnít rolled sufficient IQ or Dex to cast any spells? That would have been a serious handicap. (I suspect you would have been allowed to reroll, or choose a new race/class.) Interesting thought.>>
1) Decide first what character class and kindred you want. Write this down. I recommend putting this character on an index card.
2) [paraphrased] roll natural unmodified PAs but don't roll Myc, yet.
3) Total your PAs (including SPD). If the sum is lower than 70, then redo step 2. If you wrote down
Wizard as your chosen character class in step 1 and the IQ and DEX you rolled disallow 1st-level
spell-casting, then redo step 2 (do not re-use the stats, no matter how good they would be for a
warrior).Those were the rules (the 1st 3 steps). I don't recall exactly why I wanted you to chose race and class first, but it made sense at the time. I think it was to ensure that we get average characters. It backfired on Mistwalker_, though.