The Conversation 


Wes and I discuss racism and homophobia..... 

Wes and I emailed back and forth all day Friday about the blog talk we have been having about the movement to dehumanize gay people....

I thought I would summarize our convo here, mostly because I thought it was a really interesting discussion... I hope some folks will chime in on the comments section....

Wes: "I saw your blog updates last night. I like how you responded to mine. I
don't think I really disagree with your perspective. I think in the
abstract, larger sense, homophobia and racism come from the same kind of
insecurity/fear. But I don't see them as being on the same level. White
gays and lesbians are the children of the majority culture so while there
is a level of marginalization there, they/you all are still part of the
majority culture in the racial sense. And it's not like gay white men and
women are not racist."

Dan: "agreed there are plenty of white g&l folk with race issues, no doubt.
It doesn't take away from the fact that g&l folk face daily
discrimination. And it's the same as saying that there are black
homophobes... so what? THe haters out there infiltrate and make us
fight against each other.

I got in trouble at this dinner party years ago when I was told that I
was immune from discrimination if I wanted to be cause I could pass and
a black person never ever can.

My argument was that (and this is the part that got me in trouble) is
that its on the same level if I don't choose to pass. When I live my
life in a healthy way, OUT, with everyone knowing who I am up front, I
face the hate. The marginalization is basically the same. Listen to the
anti-marriage people "Gays and Lesbians have a right to live their
lives and have their relationships, but shouldn't want to undermine
marriage." Token acceptance. "Black people should be allowed to go to
college and compete for jobs with everyone else..." what else do the
anti-affirmative action people say... they claim to desire equality but
damn if they want to work for a black person... and if a black person
gets a promotion over them, listen to them cry "oh she just got that
job cause she is black and a woman..."

I argue that those two responses are the same kind of social illness of
discrimination, and at the same level."

Wes: "I hear what you're saying, but I just can't equate the two. The fact that
you have the choice is enough to make the distinction."

Dan: "how about the fact that I choose not to hide.
Or what damage it does to the psyche if one does hide?"

Wes: "My argument is about who suffers more, necessarily. I think the place
where racism comes from is a little different than homophobia. I think and
openly gay white male, just like a white female, may experience homophobia
and sexism, respectively, but that quality and nature of that oppression is
different. I'm not sure that folks who are homophobic, for example,
believe that gay white folks are somehow inherently inferior because of
their sexuality; which is a belief that I DO think is at play in matters of
race.
I have the advantage(?) of being both things and in my opinion the
experiences are qualitatively different."

Dan: "hmmmm I dunno... I have the experience of being white and easily
assumed as straight. Therefore I am privvy to hearing white men
denigrate everyone, assuming that I want to be complicit. I don't hear
much difference. The assumption from those who suffer from this is that
a black person doesn't speak well, didn't go to college, will lie or
steal, and got to the position they have cause they are black, not on
any merit. We'd all be safer if they were locked up.

The assumption about gay men is that they have AIDS, sleep around a
lot, want to sleep with the speaker, and really should not be allowed
in this locker room anyway, in fact, out to be sent off to therapy or
go live in San Francisco, or better yet, Amsterdam.

The end result is the same, keep them away from me cause they cannot be
trusted cause there is something wrong with them.

There's a great short story in a book called "Am I Blue" (for gay
teens) in which we all wake up and everyone who is gay has turned blue
so that the world has to see who is affected by homophobia.

OK, so walking down the st, only those with functional gaydar know I am
gay and subject me to discrimination. Walking down the st, my boss is
assumed to be a professional in a suit only cause he got there cause he
is black, not cause he is bright and hard-working.

I disagree that the fact that mine is not instantly visible reduces its
validity or oppression.

But I also don't like the notion of a scale of suffering. It's all
wrong."

Wes: "I'm not saying that homophobia is any less valid. I'm also not saying that
at the end of the day, distinctions made on the basis of race, sex, sexual
orientation,etc aren't all fuc*ed up. But I do believe the nature and
texture of the different isms/phobia are different.
Black people are already "blue;" can't choose to be anything but blue. Not
every gay person defines themselves as a gay person first; I'm one of them.
I don't really feel oppressed as a gay person."

Dan: "agreed on that point. (distinctions made on the basis... are f'ed up)
I was thinking while at the gym that I really am arguing for creating a scale of suffering and arguing what place gay/lesbian people have on it. That is frightening and ludicrous.
The end result is that we live in a world rampant with prejudice and discrimination on many levels, and we must work to eliminate all types."

It was a great discussion... helped me crystallize some thoughts... What think you? 

Posted: Sat - May 22, 2004 at 03:32 PM          
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