Quick Links
Categories
My iTunes
My Flickr
My Blogroll
Archives and Links
Browse archives by date
My Old Blog
My Homepage
100 Things About Me
My Book List
My Husband
My Church
MoreLight Presbyterians
The Presbyterian Church USA
The Monkey Sphere
Mark Morford, SF Gate
Miss Manners
My Old Blog
My Homepage
100 Things About Me
My Book List
My Husband
My Church
MoreLight Presbyterians
The Presbyterian Church USA
The Monkey Sphere
Mark Morford, SF Gate
Miss Manners
XML/RSS Feed
Calendar
| Sun | Mon | Tue | Wed | Thu | Fri | Sat |
Statistics
Total entries in this blog:
Total entries in this category:
Published On: Apr 29, 2009 09:53 AM
Total entries in this category:
Published On: Apr 29, 2009 09:53 AM
Voting...
The voting on the proposed change to the
Presbyterian Church's Book of Order continues, even though the magic
number of 87 for defeat has already been reached. Every presbytery gets to
vote, regardless of whether or not the issue has already been unofficially
decided. Anyway, we have a chance to speak and we should use
it.
Last night, the Presbytery of Detroit voted 141-92 to approve the amendment that would allow the ordination of LGBT people. (This is substantially the same amendment our church just approved for next time, so this is good news.) Last time Detroit voted on this back in 2001, it voted 102-111 against. So this is quite a substantial flip, and a welcome one. That makes 30 presbyteries so far that have flipped for equality.
The docket had an hour and a half for small group discussion and Bible study before the motion was brought up for debate and vote. The first item of business was a motion to drop the hour and a half for discussion and Bible study. There was some nonsense about being good stewards of our time, which was amusing. It's always amusing to hear a minister argue that Bible study is a waste of time. (Either that or they wanted to get home early to watch American Idol, I guess.) It's even more amusing to hear it from a minister who didn't have to take time off work to be there. But of course, this was just a tactic. These meetings start at 4PM. The voting was scheduled for 8:40PM. And these folks certainly knew that there would be folks coming in from work to vote at 8:40PM, the published time. Sneaky, eh? Yeah, this is how these folks operate. Anyway, that was soundly defeated.
The small group discussions were good. One of the things I noticed was that many people stated that they wanted to stop fighting. What I found interesting about these statements is that I didn't see nor hear a single fight during the entire meeting. In fact, people went out of their way to be honest, respectful, and kind to each other even through disagreement.
When we returned from small groups to vote on the amendment, someone immediately made a motion to take no action. This has the effect of being a "No" vote and is yet another tactic used to try to get a "No" vote without actually having to vote "No." It is primarily used in the hope that folks who are weary of these votes will go for it, not realizing that it will be counted as a "No." That was soundly defeated as well. That tactic hardly ever works any more because it's been used too much.
Then the debates. The objections were the usual variety:
1) Without the "fidelity and chastity" clause in the current language, one person claimed they'd have no guide about proper sexual expression. I wanted to throw a Bible at that person. If someone needs the Presbyterian Book of Order to figure out what to do with their naughty bits... Well, anyway. I wanted to remind the folks there, most of whom were over 135 years old, that the current language is only 12 years old. What where they doing during the first 100 years of their ordained service before they received this guidance? Staging scenes from Caligula with their cats?
2) Someone stated that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow." Can't argue with that. But what the speaker failed to realize is that Jesus had no hand in writing our Book of Order. Jesus was also the same on the day Martin Luther tacked his 95 theses to the door of Schlosskirche as He was the day before. Jesus doesn't change, but people sometimes do. Occasionally we get smarter.
3) Someone made an analogy between gay people and some poisonous industrial chemical he used at work. I don't think that one needs me to comment on it in order to make it funnier. He brought the funny all by himself.
4) Voting on this is fighting, apparently. People who don't like voting should find another denomination. I think they missed the part in our brochures that says we vote on everything.
That was about it. The other side was anemic at best. I think they saw which way the wind is blowing.
Now we get to do this again in a few months. Isn't church fun?
Last night, the Presbytery of Detroit voted 141-92 to approve the amendment that would allow the ordination of LGBT people. (This is substantially the same amendment our church just approved for next time, so this is good news.) Last time Detroit voted on this back in 2001, it voted 102-111 against. So this is quite a substantial flip, and a welcome one. That makes 30 presbyteries so far that have flipped for equality.
The docket had an hour and a half for small group discussion and Bible study before the motion was brought up for debate and vote. The first item of business was a motion to drop the hour and a half for discussion and Bible study. There was some nonsense about being good stewards of our time, which was amusing. It's always amusing to hear a minister argue that Bible study is a waste of time. (Either that or they wanted to get home early to watch American Idol, I guess.) It's even more amusing to hear it from a minister who didn't have to take time off work to be there. But of course, this was just a tactic. These meetings start at 4PM. The voting was scheduled for 8:40PM. And these folks certainly knew that there would be folks coming in from work to vote at 8:40PM, the published time. Sneaky, eh? Yeah, this is how these folks operate. Anyway, that was soundly defeated.
The small group discussions were good. One of the things I noticed was that many people stated that they wanted to stop fighting. What I found interesting about these statements is that I didn't see nor hear a single fight during the entire meeting. In fact, people went out of their way to be honest, respectful, and kind to each other even through disagreement.
When we returned from small groups to vote on the amendment, someone immediately made a motion to take no action. This has the effect of being a "No" vote and is yet another tactic used to try to get a "No" vote without actually having to vote "No." It is primarily used in the hope that folks who are weary of these votes will go for it, not realizing that it will be counted as a "No." That was soundly defeated as well. That tactic hardly ever works any more because it's been used too much.
Then the debates. The objections were the usual variety:
1) Without the "fidelity and chastity" clause in the current language, one person claimed they'd have no guide about proper sexual expression. I wanted to throw a Bible at that person. If someone needs the Presbyterian Book of Order to figure out what to do with their naughty bits... Well, anyway. I wanted to remind the folks there, most of whom were over 135 years old, that the current language is only 12 years old. What where they doing during the first 100 years of their ordained service before they received this guidance? Staging scenes from Caligula with their cats?
2) Someone stated that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow." Can't argue with that. But what the speaker failed to realize is that Jesus had no hand in writing our Book of Order. Jesus was also the same on the day Martin Luther tacked his 95 theses to the door of Schlosskirche as He was the day before. Jesus doesn't change, but people sometimes do. Occasionally we get smarter.
3) Someone made an analogy between gay people and some poisonous industrial chemical he used at work. I don't think that one needs me to comment on it in order to make it funnier. He brought the funny all by himself.
4) Voting on this is fighting, apparently. People who don't like voting should find another denomination. I think they missed the part in our brochures that says we vote on everything.
That was about it. The other side was anemic at best. I think they saw which way the wind is blowing.
Now we get to do this again in a few months. Isn't church fun?
Posted: Wed - April 29, 2009 at 09:46 AM